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Moshe Schulman Discussion with James Trimm:
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (email@example.com)
Subject: Some Questions Raised about James Trimm, by Moshe Shulman
Newsgroups: alt.messianic, alt.messianic.yeshua
View: Complete Thread (20 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2000-10-11 01:00:16 PST
From: firstname.lastname@example.org Newsgroups: alt.messianic,alt.messianic.yeshua
Subject: FOOTNOTES OF MOSHE´S JAMES TRIMM DOCUMENT
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:31:02 GMT
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:31:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com
James gets dis-fellowshipped:
More on dis-fellowship
Trimm anti-Christian teaching
http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/get_ready.htmJames Trimm calling "Christendom" the "Great Whore"
Date: 1994-01-16 02:14:36 PST
Trimm anti-Christian from Essene forum
From: "James Trimm" <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 6:23 am
Subject: Nazarene Jewish Manifesto
Not long after puting my new book Nazarene Jewish Manifesto up for
download last week I noticed a few problems and took the first
Now we have corrected those problems and added page numbers.
You are encouraged to download the Second Edition at:
You are also encouraged to print out a copy for yourself. You may
want to run down to Kinko's nad have them bind it for you.
You may want to make a copy for a friend, or email a copy to a
friend... or put it up on your website. You are encouraged to
distribute it widely... print out copies and tape them to stray dogs
James Trimm investigation of child
James Trimm talking about his "doctorate"
James Trimm gets criticism about his story on Waco:
James Trimm and Third Temple Sacrifice:
Trimm talks about the "sealed" book referring to his HRV
Nazarene Jewish Manifesto by James Scott Trimm Latest doctrinal statement
goddess site with article by James Trimm
wiccan site with article by James Trimm
James Trimm being asked about being Jewish and Nazarene in 1993From: DONNA DIORIO (DONNA.DIORIO@f3021.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG)
Date: 1993-06-02 00:09:23 PST
"teachings" get questioned:
James Trimm gets questioned about being Jewish http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=P5A86.20953%
http://teshuvah.com/articles/why_i_dont.htm A former member of his Beit Din [ruling body] who renounced Jesus as Messiah due to the confusion created by James Trimm about the Greek NT not being a valid translation. He is now practicing as an Orthodox Jew.
Trimm gets criticized on Hebrew Matthew:
Subject: FOOTNOTES OF MOSHE´S JAMES TRIMM DOCUMENT
This is the only article in this thread View: Original Format
Date: 2000-10-12 01:40:06 PST
1 Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 15:17:09 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net From: James Trimm <***@**.com> Subject: Re: second draft In-reply-to: 22.214.171.124.0.20000929104503.009e80a0@p... To: Moshe Shulman ***@***.com Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 17:58:32 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net From: James Trimm <***@**.com> Subject: Re: second draft To: Moshe Shulman ***@***.com In-reply-to: 126.96.36.199.0.20001002165349.009fc220@p... 2 The following appeared (which I have slightly edited) on James' email list 'Nazarene' in message #24384: Subject: Re: current ministry (disregard previous) From: James Trimm [deleted] There was not a tie on the Beit-Din the Halchah passed 4 to 2. I have never changed my position on this. I have always taught: 1. A person can be "saved" without being circumcised 2. A person cannot become part of Am-yisrael without circumcision. A GER TOSHAV CANNOT serve on a Jewish Beit-Din or lead a Jewish organization. The Torah is VERY clear abot this. Deut 28:13 COMMANDS us as Am-Yisrael: Y**H shall make you the head, and not the tail; and you shall be above only, and you shall not be beneath; if that you hearken unto the mitzvot of Y**H your Elohim, which I command you this day, to observe and do. (Deut. 28:13) However if we will not keep the mitzvot Y**H pronounces the following curse upon our people: The GER that is among you shall get up above you very high, and you shall come down very low... he shall be the head and you shall be the tail. Moreover all these curses shall come upon you... (Deut. 28:43-45a) [deleted] > You >are now saying that you were wrong in doing so, based on his genetics. This was never a genetics issue. It is a covenant issue. It is a freewill issue. It is not because Rav was not born Jewish but because he chooses not to become Jewish. He chooses to remain a GER TOSHAV. There is no shame in that. I believe Rav is a Righteous Gentile. I enjoy and apreciate his teachings. I encourage him to remain a "friend of the beit din" with non-voting status so that we may hear his views. I hope that he will allow us to continue to distribute his weekly Shabbat studies and to continue to have his material on the SANJ website etc. [deleted] > >Dr. Trimm, Is it not true that others agreed with Rav on this issue? I do not know of anyone who fully agreed with him on the beit din on this issue. Everyone on the beit-din except Rav maintained that a person cannot become a part of Am-Yisrael without being circumcised. [deleted] We agree with Rav on 99% of issues but we are very clear on this: 1. A person can be saved without being circumcised (Gen. 15:6 & Gen 17; Acts 15) 2. A person must be circumcised to be part of Am-Yisrael (Gen. 17:10-14) 3. It is a curse upon Am-Yisrael for A GER (i.e. a Gentile who is not circumcised into Am-Yisrael) to be in authority over Am-Yisrael. (Deut. 28:13, 43-45) (We did not write the rule book) James Trimm This list provided by SANJ sponsors: http://www.nazarene.net SANJ is a non-profit organization 24384 of 24591 The person referred to in this message is no longer associated with their Bet Din. 3 ------------------- Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:14:27 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net From: James Trimm <***@***.com> Subject: reply To: mshulman**@***.com Message-id: <email@example.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regarding your call: I was born Jewish. I have not answered your other questions yet because I am overcome with work. The new Semester for Beit Netarim has begun and I am teaching several classes as well as completing editting on three new books and preparing weekly Torah studies. My plate is so full I do not know what to do. Trimm ------------------- 4 James sent this message to me. It has some more points then what he had told me, but the general content of it confirms what I have written. (I have deleted parts that are not relevant to the issue.) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 19:22:07 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net From: James Trimm <***@***.com> Message-id: <firstname.lastname@example.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) All, [deleted] First off my Jewish ancestory comes thru my father's side (there may be some on my mother's side but it is not confirmed). The ancestory comes from the Vinyard (pronounced in German "Weinert" family. They imigrated here from Germany. They were short and had dark hair and brown eyes, a Jewish last name (Weiner/Weinert/Vinyard). As I recall one of their grandchildren was named "Rhoda" ( a very common Jewish name). There was another German Jewish family in my father's background named "Nix". I was raised in a fairly secular home. When I was 14 I started going to Synagogue (Ahavat Shalom Congregation in Ft Worth) on my own. Many people thought from my appearance that I was Jewish, in fact I looked just like the tailer in fidler on the roof. Knowing my mother was a geneologist I got together with her and shook the family tree. I was not surprised to see some Jews fall out. As I said this is when I was just 14. I continued in Rabbinic Judaism through the rest of my childhood until I was 18. It was not until that time that I acccepted Yeshua as Messiah (in fact I believe I was alomst 19). Up until that time Rabbinic Judaism was the only religion I had ever known. [deleted] At any rate Judaism is the only religion I have ever knoiwn and I do have Jewish ancestory. Moreover my wife of ten years is Jewish on her mother's side and is the grand daughter (her mother's mother) of a holacaust survivor from Germany. Together we have three children who are also Jewish. Now if the International Nazarene Beit-Din were ever to determine that I do not fit the criteria and am not Jewish, then I will gladly fulfil a conversion. However I do not personally feel the need for this since Judaism is the only religion I have ever had goin back to childhood, I have Jewish ancestors, and my wife and children are Jewish. James Trimm 5 Message-ID: <000f01c02cd0$1dc8ea20$fd5679a5@default From: "Rav Mikha'el" <***@***.com> To: "Kathryn" <***@***.net> Subject: affiliation Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:23:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C02CAE.95E4B7E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Shalom, As regading your question as to my personal affiliation with SANJ and the International Nazarene Biet Din. At this time there is no official realtionship between either myself or Biet HaKadosh and SANJ. I/we are not part of the organizational structure, we do not recognize the authority of the Beit Din, we do not contribute monetarily to SANJ. Due to the nature of the decision made by the Biet Din a year ago regarding the necessity to be Jewish in order to be a nazarene and to participate in it's most important institutions, I/we withdrew our affiliation at that time. I remain on good terms with SANJ and count many of the men and women associated with SANJ as friends and brothers. Our basic goals are common, but without proper recognition of a Gentile's value and ability to contribute on an equal level within the organization, I/we remain outside of this official community. Blessings in Yahushua, Rav Mikha'el Beit HaKadosh Reading, PA 6 See: http://www.nazarene.net/beitdin/conversion_to_netzarim_judaism.htm: Passed by The International Nazarene Beit Din on September 17, 1999. 1. Candidate must state and demonstrate that they seek conversion on conviction alone and has no other motives. 2. Candidate must pledge complete and unreserved commitment to the Torah and to the People of Israel. Candidate must complete or "test out" of a conversion course which will teach them the commitments of the covenant and the history and culture of the people whom they are joining. 3. A male seeking conversion must be circumcised. a. Circumcision must be performed in the presence of three witnesses. b. A candidate with a non-religious circumcision must undergo hatafat dam b'rit, which is the ritual drawing of blood from the region. c. The candidate is given time to recover (before the next step). 4. Candidate must undergo a ritual immersion (t'vilah). a. This must be performed before three witnesses. b. The candidate then recites the ritual prayer for immersions. c. This is followed by a second immersion. 5. Candidate is given a new, Hebrew name. 6. Conversion must be officiated by a person having s'mikhah (ordination) from the International Nazarene Beit-Din. 7 See David Stern's Messianic Jewish Manifesto p. 16-17, 21; and Dan Juster's Jewish Roots p. 191-192. 8 ----------- Disposition-Notification-To: mshulman@i... X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 01:07:29 -0400 To: James Trimm <***@***.net> From: Moshe Shulman <***@***.com> Subject: My questions Cc: ***@***.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_67513753==_.ALT" Here are the main questions i have asked. I took them from all the posts I sent you. (Some I have ignored) Please address them, as I have a number of people who are waiting on me to summerize what I hjave found out. 1. Where are the grades you had in your classes? 2. How long did it take you to get that many credits. (In the university I went to, which was on the quarter system, it would have taken well over 5 years. For a semester system, it would have been longer.) 6. How many years the program required? How many students were enroled at the time and how many average per class. 7. Course load in units and weekly class time that entailed. What were the required courses, and what you took each year (with the instructors name.) 8. (Since you have a doctorate) the title of your thesis, and where it is available. Who was on the commitee that approved it the subject. Who was your thesis advisor? Similar for your masters. 9. Which undergraduate college or university did you graduate from? With what and when? 10.: --------------------------- I was conferred with the S.T.D. degee (Sacrae Theologae Doctor) by this seminary on June 7th 1995. In what area? (I think they should change the initials.) --------------------------- 11: --------------------- Moreover my degree was earned. It was NOT awarded as an honorary degree nor was it purchased (as I said I was actually on a full scholarship). I have a certified transcript with real credit hours. The school also required three letters of recomendation from persons who have doctorates in the field of religion in order to be awarded the degree of doctor. My degree required real credit hours, as well as three such recomendations. It was NOT the product of a diploma mill. Are you claiming to have a Doctor of Religion degree? --------- 9 The first email from Dr. X was dated: Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 18:07:52 - 0400 And the second one was dated: Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:13:34 -0400 which I received from James in the following message: Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 15:17:09 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net From: James Trimm <***@***.com> Subject: Re: second draft In-reply-to: 188.8.131.52.0.20000929104503.009e80a0@p... To: Moshe Shulman <***@***.com> Message-id: <email@example.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 10 See: http://www.nazarene.net/yeshiva/course_descriptions.htm: General Biblical Studies (GB) Survey of the Tanak (1 & 2) - This course looks at the general background of the Tanak, the forming of the canon, dates, authors, and purposes of the various books. Survey of the New Testament (1 & 2) - This course will look at the New Testament from a Jewish perspective in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Rabbinc literature etc. We will examine the New Testament on the four levels of understanding. Textbooks: The Jewish New Testament Commentary by David Stern ; isbn 965-359-008-1 and MESSIAH Volume 1 available from Millennium7000 Survey of Torah (1 & 2) - This course will go through the Torah in detail through each of the 54 parashot. Survey of Navi'im (1&2) - This course will book by book through the Prophets, the background of each book its author and purpose. Survey of Ketuvim (1&2) - This course will go book by book through the Ketuvim, the background of each book its author and purpose. Survey of B'sorot (1&2) - This course will look at the four Gospels from a Jewish perspective in light of the Dead Sea Srolls, Rabbinc literature etc. We will examine the Gospels on the four levels of understanding. Survey of Shaliachim (1&2) - This course will look at the writings of the emissaries from a Jewish perspective in light of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Rabbinic literature etc. Parables of Yeshua - This course will review each of the parables of Yeshua. Tanak Textual Criticism - This course will examine the manuscript history of the text of the Tanak. "New Testament" Textual Criticism - This course will examine the manuscript history of the text of the New Testament. Biblical Hermeteutics - This course will discuss logistics in interpreting the scriptures from a Jewish perspective. This course will cover the four levels of understanding, the seven rules of Hillel, the thirteen rules of Ishmael, the thirty two rules of Eleazer and the basics of Midrashic Exegesis. Textbook JEWISH HERMENEUTICS available from SANJ Semitic Poetry - This course will cover the various types of Hebrew poetry and how identifying these forms can help us better understand the scriptures. Language Studies (LS) Biblical Hebrew (1-4) Aramaic (1-4) Biblical Greek (1-4) Advanced Systematic Theology (AST) Systematic Theology - This course will give an overview of the major areas of theology. Jewish Mysticism I - This course will cover Jewish mysticism, especially in relationship to understanding the Godhead. Textbook: MYSTERY OF THE GODHEAD; BASIC CONCEPTS OF KABBALAH available from SANJ Escatology - This course will give an overview of matters relating to the last days and the afterlife. Apologetics and Polemics (AP) Apologetics I - This course will deal with basic polemics and apologetics. Apologetics II (Messianic Prophecy) - This course will deal with polemics and apologetics regarding Messianic Prophecy. Overview of the Typology of the Jewish Feast Days - This course will go over each of the festivals of Israel and examine their typology. Creation Science - This class will examine evidence for special creation and against evolution. Answering Islam - This course will review and answer the claims of Islam as well as explore methods of presenting Torah and Messiah to Moslems. Answering Christendom - This course will review and answer the claims of Christendom as well as explore methods of presenting Torah and Nazarene Judaism to Christians and examine pagan elements within Christendom. Textbooks:FREEDOM IN TORAH and SEVEN SEALS SEVEN THUNDERS both available from SANJ. Aswering Mormonism - How to respond to Mormons and how to present Torah and Nazarene Judaism to Mormons. Student must also take or have taken "Answering Christendom" to take this class. (yes, you can take this with "Answering Chritendom) Textbooks:FREEDOM IN TORAH and SEVEN SEALS SEVEN THUNDERS both available from SANJ. Answering Para-Christian Groups - This course will review and answer the claims of para-Christian groups as well as explore methods of presenting Torah to them Archaeology and the Bible - This course will cover the Bible in its relationship to Biblical Archaeology. Messianic Apologetics - How to respond to the anti-missionaries. Textbook: Let's Get Truthful tapeset and studyguide available from SANJ Semitic Literature (SL) Overview of Rabbinic Literature - Rashi on the Tanak - Survey of the Mishna - This course will go tractate by tractate through the Mishna, the background of each tractate and its purpose Survey of the Tosefta - This course will go tractate by tractate through the Tosefta, the background of each tractate and its purpose Survey of Talmud - This course will go tractate by tractate through the Talmud, the background of each tractate and its purpose Survey of the Midrashim - This course will review the various midrashim and make a detailed study of at least one midrash. An overview of the Midrashim this class will examine: Midrash Mekhilta; Midrash Sifre; Midrash Rabbah and Midrash Sefer HaYashar. Textbook: The Midrash; an Introduction; Jacob Neusner ISBN 1-56821-357-3 or 0-87668-814-8 Survey of the Sefer Yetzirah, the Bahir and the Zohar - This course will survey the basic literature of Jewish Mysticism. Survey of the Siddur - This course will go through the Siddur line by line giving a better understanding of the traditional liturgy. Survey of the Dead Sea Scrolls - This course will go document by document through the Dead Sea Scrolls (apart from biblical manuscripts) Text Book: The DSS a New Translation by Wise; Abegg & Cook. Halachah (Hal) Mechanics of the Hebrew Calendar - This class will examine the mechanics of the original Hebrew calendar, the Hillel II calendar end even the Qumran calendar. Overview of the Mitzvot - This course will examine each of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). History (H) History of the Nazarenes - This course will trace the history of the Nazarenes from the beginning of the ministry of Yochanan the immerser (John the Baptist) forward. History of Judaism - This course will cover the history of Judaism through the Second Temple Era. History of Rabbinic Judaism - This course will cover the history of Rabbinic Judaism from the second Temple Era forward. History of Christendom - This course will cover the history of Christiandom from its inception to the current day. Tracing the Lost Tribes - This course will trace the migrations of the Lost Tribes. Textbook: The Tribes by Yair Davidy Overview of the Typology of the Jewish Feast Days - This course will go over each of the festivals of Israel and examine their typology. 11 ---------- Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 01:45:38 -0500 (CDT) Date-warning: Date header was inserted by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net From: James Trimm <***@***.com> Subject: Reply to slander about Yeshiva To: mshulman**@***.com Message-id: <firstname.lastname@example.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All, How long must we be opressed and slandered by Kathryn? Peresonally I do not think Kathryn knows what she is talking about but for the reasons given below even if she is correct the law in question is unconstitional and therefore null and void. Beit Netzarim Nazarene Yeshiva functions under the approbation of the International Nazarene Beit Din. We maintain that the US Bill of Rights guarantees our right to function as a religious organization without licensing by the state. In fact this very issue was one of the original issues that led to the colinization of this country and our eventual split from England. England had laws requiring such Religious Schools to be licensed by the King and required that ministers be liscened to preach by the Kings authority. The Anabaptists, Puritans, Jews and others wished to operate their own schools and issue their own degrees without having to be liscensed by the King. We further mainatin that the Texas State Constitution even further protects this same right to function without licensing by the State. We further maintain that Artical I Section 7 of the Texas State Constitution forbids the state from spending one penny in any attempt to liscense us. Even if there were a law counter to these it would be unconstitutional on both the Federal and State levels and therefore null and void. Even if we were to challenge such a law in court and lose we would only have to move the mailing address of the Yeshiva to another state or country. SANJ has affiliates in several states and four English Speaking countries. James Trimm ----------
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