I think the whole Messianic/Hebrew roots movement would fall apart without the teachings from the Talmud. I don't think that anyone would come to any of the beliefs that they have just by reading the Old and New Testament (the people caught up in HR).
I sure wish that I had never heard any of that teaching! Just when I think I've come out of it, something else comes along to pull me back in!The most recent thing was a set of CDs from FFOZ on the "Sacrifices".
They teach in this series that the New Covenant is not actually complete until the Millinial kingdom is here. Then the sacrifices will be brought back in when the temple is rebuilt and the Messiah will reign.
They also teach that we can't "draw near" to God without sacrifices or we will die (not able to enter the "Holy of Holies") until the temple is rebuilt and the priesthood brought back.
It was all based on the book of Hebrews (and I heard some terms which I think were from Kabbbah or the "sages" thrown in ) It's hard to remember because it was very confusing and I kept falling asleep!
I didn't really want to listen to them (and I resisted for awhile) but then I thought I needed to have an "open mind" and listen to them just because my husband wanted me to (a mistake).
It wouldn't be so bad if it just affected my husband and I but my daughter and her new husband and my teen-age son go with us to this so-called "church"! Yes, I still go up there with him because I don't want to cause "dissension" (as my husband says I'll do if I quit going)
I'm sorry for going on and on -I guess I needed to share all this with someone. My only friend says I just need to "submit to my husband"and just go wherever he goes. What can I say to him so he can see the truth? He is so brainwashed that I don't know if he will even listen to me anymore.
(06-25-2010 03:01 PM)live4Him Wrote: [ -> ]I think the whole Messianic/Hebrew roots movement would fall apart without the teachings from the Talmud. I don't think that anyone would come to any of the beliefs that they have just by reading the Old and New Testament (the people caught up in HR).
I sure wish that I had never heard any of that teaching! Just when I think I've come out of it, something else comes along to pull me back in!The most recent thing was a set of CDs from FFOZ on the "Sacrifices".
They teach in this series that the New Covenant is not actually complete until the Millinial kingdom is here. Then the sacrifices will be brought back in when the temple is rebuilt and the Messiah will reign.
They also teach that we can't "draw near" to God without sacrifices or we will die (not able to enter the "Holy of Holies") until the temple is rebuilt and the priesthood brought back.
It was all based on the book of Hebrews (and I heard some terms which I think were from Kabbbah or the "sages" thrown in ) It's hard to remember because it was very confusing and I kept falling asleep!
I didn't really want to listen to them (and I resisted for awhile) but then I thought I needed to have an "open mind" and listen to them just because my husband wanted me to (a mistake).
It wouldn't be so bad if it just affected my husband and I but my daughter and her new husband and my teen-age son go with us to this so-called "church"! Yes, I still go up there with him because I don't want to cause "dissension" (as my husband says I'll do if I quit going)
I'm sorry for going on and on -I guess I needed to share all this with someone. My only friend says I just need to "submit to my husband"and just go wherever he goes. What can I say to him so he can see the truth? He is so brainwashed that I don't know if he will even listen to me anymore.
Hi Live4Him; I can relate to alot in your post, I'm glad you wrote.
My husband just spent $100.00 on a Glenn McWilliams commentary, without discussing with me-
It is hard for my husband to believe (after only 2 yrs with HR) that Jesus fulfilled everything. He asks "Do we have the Torah written on our hearts?" And, doesn't it say in Rev. somewhere that sacrifices will be done again? I need to search this myself too- that was one BIG teaching- that sacrifices will be done again in the Millenial Kingdom, and "we" will be teaching all those people who come to Christ in the Tribulation. I'm still re-reading Hebrews 10- great chapter.
There are other submission issues here too, somewhere he read that he is our covering, and my daughter nor I can't even go anywhere without him unless he says we can. Also that if I didn't do whatever he wanted me to on Sabbath (meaning s_x), any worship or praise I did would not even count! I still haven't figured out where that teaching came from.
One good thing that came out of my "experimentation" with HR, is that I sure did test (or was tested) to see if I was in the faith. There was a really bad time 2 yrs ago, that I thought I was doomed, that it was too late for me to be saved, that maybe I was wrong about the rapture and I missed it, I was hearing noises and voices. I really had to actually READ the Word during a whole week of no sleep and find out what the foundation of this "faith", and re-pent, rebuild on the solid foundation of Jesus' one-time sacrifice for me (and all). Still reading...
also reading about spiritual warfare. But that is how we are slowly getting out- *I* quit going, then the kids got to stay home with me, husband is not attending the local torah group now, but is still listening to stuff online.
(06-21-2010 07:27 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ] (06-21-2010 05:06 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: [ -> ]Is gematria numerology (which would make it a form of divination)? I couldn't figure it out any easier than the Talmudic quotes, but I know a bit about "Western" numerology, which supposedly can determine traits about the victim based on numbers, letters, names, etc.
I am not sure. I thot divination was looking into the future - like a psychic today. It's definitely esoteric.
here is Webster's definition because the lexicons do not define it - however, they do call it witchcraft.
Main Entry: div·i·na·tion
Pronunciation: \ˌdi-və-ˈnā-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English divinacioun, from Latin divination-, divinatio, from divinare
Date: 14th century
1 : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers
2 : unusual insight : intuitive perception
kabbalah originated in Babylon but was not defined until around the 13th century AD with the channeled writing of the Zohar, so numerology could come from that into other systems of practice. It all comes from the same source - the occult.
Sorry about the delay but I was trying to figure out a way to verbalize this. Divination includes foretelling the future but it encompasses any invoking of spirits to obtain "hidden" knowledge, usually through ritual (tarot, tea leaves, Ouija, taking drugs etc). Many religions practice it, including occultic Christianity and occultic Judaism. The hidden knowledge can be about the past, present and seemingly the future, though diviners are well-known for getting the future emphatically WRONG.
There is a species of sage plant that people use recreationally and religiously called
Salvia divinorum aka diviner's sage, that induces hallucinations and conjures spirits (pharmakeia). It is in the same genus as edible sage. I tried some of it years ago and I got such an overwhelming feeling of an evil presence that I got rid of it pronto!
(06-25-2010 07:07 PM)Dee Wrote: [ -> ][quote]dee:
Hi Live4Him; I can relate to alot in your post, I'm glad you wrote.
My husband just spent $100.00 on a Glenn McWilliams commentary, without discussing with me-
It is hard for my husband to believe (after only 2 yrs with HR) that Jesus fulfilled everything. He asks "Do we have the Torah written on our hearts?" And, doesn't it say in Rev. somewhere that sacrifices will be done again? I need to search this myself too- that was one BIG teaching- that sacrifices will be done again in the Millenial Kingdom, and "we" will be teaching all those people who come to Christ in the Tribulation. I'm still re-reading Hebrews 10- great chapter.
There are other submission issues here too, somewhere he read that he is our covering, and my daughter nor I can't even go anywhere without him unless he says we can. Also that if I didn't do whatever he wanted me to on Sabbath (meaning s_x), any worship or praise I did would not even count! I still haven't figured out where that teaching came from.
One good thing that came out of my "experimentation" with HR, is that I sure did test (or was tested) to see if I was in the faith. There was a really bad time 2 yrs ago, that I thought I was doomed, that it was too late for me to be saved, that maybe I was wrong about the rapture and I missed it, I was hearing noises and voices. I really had to actually READ the Word during a whole week of no sleep and find out what the foundation of this "faith", and re-pent, rebuild on the solid foundation of Jesus' one-time sacrifice for me (and all). Still reading... also reading about spiritual warfare. But that is how we are slowly getting out- *I* quit going, then the kids got to stay home with me, husband is not attending the local torah group now, but is still listening to stuff online.
My heart goes out to you. Well I know the struggles and frustrations that this movement has created. It is a horrible deception. God is a God of peace, not confusion and if you are under a system that wants to show you what God is ''really" saying, that is confusion. Every teacher in HR has a new twist and new "revelations" to keep people confused and dependent. Fear is instilled, as you experienced, because they cannot do enough to keep the Law - and that is a horrible yoke. The teachers pound Torah observance constantly - the nuances and subtly blend in with more outright hammering until one has been brainwashed.
HR appeals to our innate desire for knowledge. This what tricked eve. The deception shows that because the origins of one's faith comes through the Jews that certainly they have a clear idea, as passed down from Mt Sinai, of exactly what God demands, therefore; anything Hebraic or Jewish is superior to anything Christian. The desire to dig into the Scriptures and find ways to gain more insight drives people to seek that knowledge through man's systems. This is why even in Christianity is well accepted to refer to "study" as Midrash - which is one of the 4 levels of interpretation as found in kabbalah. Most people want to feel they have something a little more revelatory than the next - hence the gnostic bent in all of us.
To answer your husband's questions, the Law written on our hearts is the Law of Christ. Torah is old covenant, passed away, finished, completed aka the "book is closed". Jesus is the New Covenant. If the old covenant was perfect Jesus would not have had to come. Hebrews is a wonderful book that explains this all so well. God's Law is so much broader than "Torah" and I believe that HR does not see that. They want Torah to be the focus - which it was under the old cov - but now, our focus is to be on Jesus Christ and His Laws - love as the foundation. Torah was not founded on love, but on blessings and curses. Jesus taught love, compassion, mercy, and forgiveness - Torah taught an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
Check out Luke 24 - Jesus said He fulfilled ALL the Law and Prophets 
There is no reference to sacrifices being done again in Rev. The only reference is sacrificing to idols which was an admonition to a couple of the 7 churches. I think your husband is referring to Zech 14 which HR connects with the millennial reign. No where in the NT is this stated. It is pure conjecture! Please read page two of this thread about the sacrificial system:
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...318&page=2
I am thrilled that you are out of HR, but I realize tremendous pressure put on you and to watch someone you love continue down a path that you know is not Scriptural. Sticking to the Word is what cleanses us from all those false teachings as you discovered. The legalism is a terrible yoke and it appears that you are being forced to submit to rules that are designed to keep women "under". In Christ, husbands and wives are submitted to each other, and the husband is to treat/love her as Christ treats/loves the body. That is quite a jump from the submission tactics of some men's understanding of Scripture. There is such freedom in the simplicity of Christ.
Here is the passage that refers to women's head coverings - I inserted "wife" because that is the correct translation of the Greek - the context is referring to wives, not women in general:
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [wife] is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
1Co 11:5 But every woman [wife] that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, for as much as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power [authority] on her head because of the angels.
1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1Co 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray to God uncovered?
1Co 11:14 Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame to him?
1Co 11:15
But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
Could you clarify what you mean by "spiritual warfare"?
Hope that helped
I wanted to also note that many leadership in HR have had broken homes because of entering into their beliefs and expecting their wives to go along with them. Many are given a certain amount of time to get on board and then if they remain true to Christ and reject HR---because some are believers to start with, they are divorced under what these self appointed leaders claim to be found in the Mosaic law. Something which Jesus addressed very clearly for believers. But that is also why they must push adherence to the Mosaic law for where they claim to get their 'obedience', because of the need to justify what they are doing, which violates the New Covenant and what Jesus clearly taught, and fulfilled.
Titus 3:8-11 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Jesus said no one was to come between a husband and wife and this doctrine of heresies within HR does just that. And that means scripturally it is not of God.
Matthew 19:3-9 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5. And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6. Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8. He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Matthew 5:27-32 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 31. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
I so often think of Romans when I think of HR and its leadership and all its gnostic and errant teachings, which take people away from Christ and the New Covenant. Many are calling themselves of Jewish heritage because of, well, it sounds good and their missing proof is they think their great great great great great great grandmother was married to a Jew or was a Jew...maybe...
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
But these Scriptures really do apply because of that mentality of 'being a Jew" and the law.
Romans 2:16-23 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 17. Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18. And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19. And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20. An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22. Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23. Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Galatians 6:12-16 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13. For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Vic, a side-note while on this topic, which would be a great help to those of us who are always on the move for a living. Would it be possible for you to put those "long!!!" writings you have in audio format, something that can be copied over to an Ipod/Iphone/Ipad/Iohnonotanotherone, and listened to while always on the go?
Hard to read anything while always moving around.
Thx.
sheep wrecked Wrote:Here is are some quotes from Maimonides who is one of the most revered sages of rabbinic Judaism who is quoted by some teachers promoted in Hebrew Roots:
Mishneh Torah
"And all these things of Jesus the Nazarene, and of (Muhammad) the Ishmaelite who stood after him – there is no (purpose) but to straighten out the way for the King Messiah, and to restore all the world to serve God together." -
This must be why the "theme" of Sukkot for many sites was "Unity"..? 
"... may his bones be ground to dust"
This "cursing", I was looking for where they think they have authority to curse people. A couple weeks ago people were cursing Martin Luther because of his quoting Jesus talking to the Pharisees calling them a "brood of vipers", etc. I assumed it (cursing/ spitting) was from the movie Fiddler on the Roof. Do you have a post already started on the Reformers or so-called anti-S and those who curse them?
(06-26-2010 01:18 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]Could you clarify what you mean by "spiritual warfare"?
Hope that helped
I mean, praying the blood of Jesus over situations, taking/ using the authority that we have as believers.
Want an update? We are now out of all groups. My husband now understands that Talmudic influence no matter how subtle is just plain anti-Christ. The group was adding more and more rituals. I think they really must feel they are "honoring" their brother Judah, and Israel by doing these things. I guess sometimes the wife has to do the research and just keep reading it outloud ;-)
