SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

According to the Law of Moses [Torah], the children of Israel were commanded to wear fringes [tzitzit] on their garments and to write the commandments on their foreheads, on their hands, on their gates and doorways. In today's Messianic practices, the tzitzit is an extremely important part of that.

My questions are these:

1) If the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31,32 states that God's Law will be written on our hearts, not on the tablets of stone that He gave at Mt Sinai, why do you now need to wear tzitzit?

2) Why don't Messianics make it a practice of wearing the commandments written on their foreheads and hands, on their gates and doorways? I understand that some do - taking on the Rabbinical practices of the tefillin [boxes strapped to the arms and forehead that contain the Torah written on paper tucked inside] and the mezuzah [boxes that attach to the sides of the doors - interior and exterior of the home that also contain the Torah written on paper and tucked inside]. However; the practice particularly of tefillin, is not nearly as "popular". Can someone tell me why?

3) Do Messianics not find it rather strange that no mention of these practices are in the NT? Nor is there any instruction for such "important" matters?

Num 15:38 Speak to the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put on the fringe of the borders a ribbon of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look on it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that you seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you use to go a whoring:
Num 15:40 That you may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy to your God.

Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command you this day, shall be in your heart:
Deu 6:7 And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.
Deu 6:8 And you shall bind them for a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
Deu 6:9 And you shall write them on the posts of your house, and on your gates.

I do agree that nowhere in the NT those 2 thinge are mentioned.
But......
I am not sure if that new convenant of jeremia, repeated in hebr 8, is allready working.
Because a part of those verses tell us otherwise:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
The underlined part is not yet fullfilled.
We still learn eachother, and theyre sins are not forgiven yet, since they did n t accept Jesus as messiah!

That His law is allready written on many hearts is true and the Holy spirit will guide us.


Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

All things Jesus told them i presume.....so this verse is also a witness, that not the OT but the NT is teached to His followers.
Jesus teached them alot.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So no more tzit tzits or fringels.
He who is in us will teach and guide us.

EMJE

emje, good thoughts! :idea:

I think we need to look at Jeremiah 31:34 as referring to those under the New Covenant. Only those who believe in Jesus as the Son of God for salvation are under the New Covenant. Whose sins are forgiven? Those who are in Christ aka the New Covenant. So who knows God from the least to the greatest? All those that are in Christ Jesus - because He reveals Himself to us through His Word and the Holy Spirit - just like you pointed out

Also, we are told in the NT that we are the ministers of the New Covenant, so it's totally fulfilled



2Co 3:6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

Okay i understand whatyou are saying.
So we as individuals can come throught Jesus into that new convenant...(jeremia 31)
But as n a nation (israel) they arent???
Like not n whole country is christian?
But citizens are.

EMJE

p.s.
The convenant Jesus talks about at last supper
"this is my blood "etc is the convenant that was promised en repeated in hebr 8?And the Holy Spirit is doing the writing on the heart and mind?
Just asking to be sure.

Emje, you mentioned

Quote:So we as individuals can come throught Jesus into that new convenant...(jeremia 31)
But as n a nation (israel) they arent???
Like not n whole country is christian?
But citizens are.

I dont know if Im reading you correctly but are you referring to the erroneous messianic belief that the whole of the state of Israel is going to repent and believe in Messiah upon his return?
I have heard that many times but I dont see where the OT or NT teaches this.
What I do see in OT and especially the prophets is that only a remnant of Israel would believe not a whole mass national repentance.
The same in the NT.Jesus kept warning the people and the leaders and after so did Paul.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the descendants of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your descendants be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the descendants.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of hosts had left us a descendant, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All Israel in that last verse is the Israel of God composed of both jew and gentile,since the context shows it speaks of both jew and gentiles.
And one last one from the words of Jesus himself


Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(02-17-2009 09:10 AM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]Okay i understand whatyou are saying.
So we as individuals can come throught Jesus into that new convenant...(jeremia 31)
But as n a nation (israel) they arent???
Like not n whole country is christian?
But citizens are.

EMJE

p.s.
The covenant Jesus talks about at last supper
"this is my blood "etc is the convenant that was promised en repeated in hebr 8?And the Holy Spirit is doing the writing on the heart and mind?
Just asking to be sure.

The nation of Israel is no longer under the covenant. The New Covenant allows for the people of all nations to be reconciled to God through Christ. As Paul stated - now there is no Jew or Gentile[Greek], slave or free, male or female in Christ. Jesus also said, no one comes to the Father but through Me. Unless Jewish people believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah, they are without God and are not under the New Covenant.

You are right, the Holy Spirit indwells believers - this is part of the New Covenant.

I know a lot of people think that countries can be "christian", but there is no such thing as a nation under Christ/God. Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world. His Kingdom are all those who believe in Him, regardless of what nation they are from. This is the mystery that Paul spoke of and why he was chosen to explain it

It seems that there are many people, including most of Hebrew Roots that believe all Jews will be saved. I don't believe this is what the Scriptures teach. Never, have all the Jews found salvation - even in the OT. When Paul referred to "all" Israel being saved, he was talking about the "true" Israel of God - all those who believe in Jesus as Messiah, including those from before Christ who believed God's promise. Isaiah speaks of only a third of the Jews accepting Christ. I believe that there will be a large remnant that accept Jesus at some point, but how it's played out, I do not know. Lots of conjecture and speculation on that one for sure