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HI Michael!

I agree with that too. It is important to know that we are saved, and How. And every one of those Scriptures show us that. I think the issue becomes whether someone can take that most amazing gift and toss it away. Because the cost becomes too high. And so many other reasons/excuses. LIke those disciples that turned back and never followed Christ again because of what He taught--they didn't believe Him. There's so many examples of things like that. But to me, if someone believes Christ, they will live for Him. Even through the struggles there is still a deep belief.

Was just thinking how Jesus taught:

Luke 14:27-30 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29. Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30. Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

(01-01-2011 04:42 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ] HI Michael!

I agree with that too. It is important to know that we are saved, and How. And every one of those Scriptures show us that. I think the issue becomes whether someone can take that most amazing gift and toss it away. Because the cost becomes too high. And so many other reasons/excuses. LIke those disciples that turned back and never followed Christ again because of what He taught--they didn't believe Him. There's so many examples of things like that. But to me, if someone believes Christ, they will live for Him. Even through the struggles there is still a deep belief.

Was just thinking how Jesus taught:

Luke 14:27-30 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29. Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30. Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Thanks! I have always had a hard time balancing God's grace with my responsibility. I feel that I should do more but many times I feel that I don't do it right. I think many people struggle with that. We have a whole world that has been taught that they must follow and work for these mega, cultic institutions. They work hard for their salvation that is free. In many cases they work harder for a lie than true Christians work for the truth. I guess the next question in this series that I would like answered is:

How do you witness?

What verses do you use?

How do you promote good works in the context of grace?

At the end of your witness/presentation is the person able or willing to go on with the Gospel? I understand that many will just reject the Bible outright but I don't want them to reject the Gospel because of my arrogant, misinformed doctrine; if that is the case.

Thanks Vic. Hope you all are doing well.

THe whole discussion about How do we witness etc, is now in a new thread:

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=743

(01-01-2011 04:58 PM)MBT Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks! I have always had a hard time balancing God's grace with my responsibility. I feel that I should do more but many times I feel that I don't do it right. I think many people struggle with that. We have a whole world that has been taught that they must follow and work for these mega, cultic institutions. They work hard for their salvation that is free. In many cases they work harder for a lie than true Christians work for the truth....How do you promote good works in the context of grace?

...Thanks Vic. Hope you all are doing well.

Balancing grace with our responsibilty---good way of putting it I think. On the flip side, The whole, if you say you do something you get accused of working for your salvation. Cults don't serve Christ so I can only tackle this from a Biblical perspective. Those who come to Christ need to understand the difference.

I guess that would mean all the apostles and Jesus were in error when they worked or 'laboured' in spreading the gospel, did the 'work' of God, and called the other believers, 'fellowlabourers" etc. Not one apostle sat back and did nothing, afraid they would be accused of working for their salvation and overturning being saved by God's grace. But it is fully about as God leads each to share Christ.

Let''s look at some of the terms used for serving Christ. And how many times the terms work or working or similar are used. Because it almost seems that to use those terms means you are doing something in the flesh instead of allowing Christ to "work" through you.

"1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. "

Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Mark 13:34-36 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1Co 16:10 Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.

Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:29-30 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation: 30. Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1Ti 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

There's so many more, but I think that gives a good example. Not once is it ever implied that serving Christ is a specatator sport, or that you can't or shouldn't make a committment to serve Him and do some 'work'. Just the very terms of "pick up your cross daily" is an action or work term. Does that negate the free gift of salvation?. Not at all. It merely shows you believe Christ and are obedient to keep His words. And that shows you love Him.

I think James so clearly demonstrated that if you have faith it will show in what works you do. It does not mean you are working for your salvation. It means you are quite simply living your faith.

James 2:14-18 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The very terms of "serving" Christ or being a 'servant of', is a 'work' term. If we define those terms, we can see it isn't about just sitting back and 'being' saved.

(01-01-2011 03:29 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ] [color=#1E90FF][b]I think those who are in religion, and not serving Christ are in bondage. Yes, many believers struggle, fall, get temporarily deceived possibly, but those who love Christ are merely learning to follow Him no matter what. That is all part of maturing in Christ.

Yes,great statement. It is all part of being perfected in love and being conformed to His image. Hebrew 12 talks about not despising His chastening. We received it because we are His children. God will perfect us in love and will conform us to the image of Christ (love) and chastening is a big part of the process. It is all part of the process of maturing in Christ. There is no substitute for the Cross of Christ in our lives.

We are told not to faint, not to draw back.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


I think there's a difference in what is called the Christian church and those living for Jesus Christ, if that makes sense. Scripture tells us there will be a great falling away, and if your above post is true on the Scriptures you mention, that falling away has to do with those who knew the truth.

I believe we are living in the Great Falling Away, Today. Yes, those who fall away are not the world. They are those who knew the Lord and tasted of His mercy.

May the Lord help us all to remain faithful and to endure to the end.

Rick

P.S. We should not be in bondage, but many are.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

(05-03-2009 06:38 PM)finney Wrote: [ -> ]Only if you can make the Lord not keep his word. Our salvation (Praise God and thank you very much) is not contingent upon what we do, it's based on what He did.
If you could, I would have. I spent years trying to please God and 'be saved' and I spent years trying to lose my salvation 'cause I couldn't 'do it'. I've told God to just leave me alone, I've deliberately tried to go away from him by sin, expecting that he would just call it a day and leave me be. I couldn't do it, I couldn't live the Chrisitian life and eventually I'd just give up trying. I'm not kiddin' on the years part, either. Desire to do and be and no way to do will just drive you nuts. Suicide was a strong temptation at times and seemed like the only way to cease the constant goad of the law. I knew there had to be something other than that but couldn't see what it was. I figured if I did the right things then the 'joy of the Lord' and such like would just happen. It's a miserable way to live. He never let me go, though, and eventually he brought me to the place where I could trust him and where I ceased from my efforts. Not all of us have fathers that we can (or could, in my case) trust. If you're raised that way it's tough to trust God, and since I knew I just kept sinning no matter what, how could I expect that he could love me or want anything to do with me? I wanted him to leave so I could prove somehow that I really wasn't worthy and that this was all a mistake on his part. Years of torment and internal anguish over that but now I think it was all for good in the end. Am I perfect now? Hah! I've ceased to care, though, about what I'm like and instead just rest in the Lord and his righteousness. I quit. But there's plenty out there like me (just differing degrees) and I'm now in a position to help 'em.
If the question were phrased somewhat differently there would be different responses.

As to throwing it away, milordsheep: You're welcome to try; it can't be done but it ain't worth findin' out through experience except that the effort's put me in a place I might never have come to otherwise. Was it worth all that just so I could be in a place to help others? Apparently. Would I wish it on anybody for any reason? NO! Was it necessary? That I can't say. All I can say in the end for certain is this: Jesus' salvation is perfect and true and lovely and holy and free free free and beautiful and most definitely not yours to hold on to or lose or throw away or any other thing; it's His and he's able and willing to keep you despite yourself. If you think you're doing something that 'keeps you saved' you're still strugglin' with the law of sin and death. The only way you can lose his life is if he does and he did that already once for all. There's a lot more I can say on this subject but that'll do for now.
finney

PS Sorry for the length of the post.

Absolutely... Amein and Amein. No way, No how, can it be thrown away. The price that was paid was way to great for that.

Within religion, salvation is described as the saving grace when judgment day comes. I don't think that people could lose salvation because it is something that is already given and some sort of blessing that gives people the guarantee that they are going to be saved. Though when people have already swayed away too much from God and his teachings, I think that it is possible to lose it, or worse, not be entitled to it.

Very interesting dialoge . Its a subject that can be looked at from both views ! But I like Pauls "final answer" Hebrews 10:39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition ; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul "! Lets hold on to this , this confidence ! Paul saw something in those that believe , He saw Christ ! And with Christ we can and will be saved . Amen!

" Let us hold fast our profession "Yes I do agree . We have a choice . We are free willed creatures . I like the verses in Colossians 1:21-23 "and you that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked workes ,yet now has He reconciled (Hallelujah) in the body of His flesh through death , to present you holy and unbleamable and unreprovable in His sight :If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel ..." It sounds like we have a big part to play out. Philippians 2:12 "...work out your own salvation with fear ..." Seems its a fight , but one that can be won ,as Jesus has got the victory !!!!