SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

(12-12-2011 07:28 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:If this is what you are saying the New Covenant is then I ask you..Are the Laws (Torah)so into your mind and so wrote on your heart, that like it says ..And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest
That means that when we have this "New"(incorrect translation) Covenant we will no longer have to teach anyone because we will all know It (The Torah) And all men will Know HIM. So, there will be absolutely no need to have to Evangelize or witness to people in regards to the Good New's and the Messiah, because we will all know HIM and HIS Torah.

I think that you are assuming there that it is the Sinai Laws that are written on our hearts. Since you yourself admit that Torah means instruction, wouldn't it be more correct to say that God's instructions will be written on our hearts.
Would you also agree that nothing physical is actually written on our hearts and that the phrase is a metaphor?
Let's consider what Paul wrote to the Corinthians regarding the Neew Covenant and things being written on the heart

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

It seems that Jeremiah(in ch 31) was already alluding to the contrast between the letter of the Law that was written on tablets of stone and the action of the Holy spirit that engraved the Law of God upon our hearts. It is not the same covenant though Mark.It is not the Old one renewed but a new one that is not like the Old one. The Law could only make us aware of our sin but it couldn't create in us the right heart to obey it. Therefore it condemned us. It is the Spirit in us that changes us


2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


The laws that are written figuratively on my heart are not the ones that belonged in the Old. If the priesthood etc have been done away with how can I then have them in me to obey them. The laws that commanded us to stone people for their sin, to take my sacrifice to an earthly high priest, etc are just not in me. Instead what is written on my heart are the commands of Jesus. To love our neighbour as ourself, to have mercy, compassion etc.

Mark did you know that anti missionaries use the same argument about Messiah not having become because all the world does not know God.They use an erroneous interpretation of the verse


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It seems to me you are separating this verse out of the whole context of the New Covenant as we know it from the New Testament writings.
The way I see it is that no longer will man have to teach another how to obey God since the Holy Spirit in us will do the teaching. Ancient Israel relied on the prophets, priests and scribes to know about God.We tend to forget that they didn't have Bibles back then 
Isaiah prophesied about this also when he wrote

Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Jesus referred to this verse when He said
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me has everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

So you see Mark, in the New Covenant it is not the case that people will no longer have to witness etc as you wrote.You are essentially saying that we will all have no teaching at all and will just automatically know God.
John quotes Isaiah who speaks of messianic times also saying that they will all be taught of the Lord. This doesn’t conflict with Jeremiah when he says that no longer will man have to teach each other(as the Old Covenant system required) but that God Himself would be our teacher.

OK, your gonna make me really dig into this aren't you. LOL,ok.
I'm in the process of having to finish my final's at college. So, like you I don't have the time right now and it's like 12:30am!!. But, See I think alot of the problem here is the confusing of these Covenants. I don't believe God made a Covenant and then ended it with Yeshua. And I believe that Yeshua was stating that fact when he said HE didn't come to destroy the Torah... Old testament... law... NO , not a single bit. He even expounded on the Commandments. Even paul tell's the new gentile converts, that even though they didn't have to be physically circumcised , they still had to abide by the "Torah" in many other regards. So, if in fact the "old" covenant as you put it or the "old law" , is done away with then why would paul give any instructions to any of it at all?? Either the whole old"law"-Covenant is gone... or it's not>> you can't have a little bit of everything.There are many references to the "old" law in the new testament,many. So it just makes no sense at all to say we don't have to abide by it? One of the biggest things that the Messiah does for us(well there are many),is to take away the sting of death, which really refers to the 2nd death, eternal separation from God. and that's really what the curse of the "law" was. Sin =death (2nd death), eternal separation from the almighty.
I have alot of Scripture reference and i'll finish this later. I had no idea i would be putting this much time into this site. But, God leads , I just follow.
Peace my Brother

Quote:Even paul tell's the new gentile converts, that even though they didn't have to be physically circumcised , they still had to abide by the "Torah" in many other regards. So, if in fact the "old" covenant as you put it or the "old law" , is done away with then why would paul give any instructions to any of it at all?? Either the whole old"law"-Covenant is gone... or it's not>> you can't have a little bit of everything.There are many references to the "old" law in the new testament,many. So it just makes no sense at all to say we don't have to abide by it?

Mark,when you have time, maybe you can show me where Paul said that they still had to abide by the Torah in many regards.Of course we all have to abide by certain things that were in the Torah like not stealing,not committing adultery,etc but those are elements that are common to God's laws immaterial of what covenant we are in.

You then say that either the whole law/covenant is gone or it's not..and I totally agree.

But wouldn't that then contradict what you say Paul means since we cant say no circumcision and yet obey the rest of the law.That is picking and choosing a little bit here and there of what you want.
It's either all or nothing,like Paul and James said.Or even Deuteronomy where it says

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirms not ALL the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

The Sinai Covenant included many things which you yourself will agree is no longer in force.For example, the priesthood through inheritance through Aaron, animal sacrifices etc.
Mark at one time I believed we could pick and choose what we could do of the Law and the rest didn't apply.But we see that the Sinai Covenant had to be obeyed in its entirety or else curses ensued.You said the curse of the law was death, yet the curses of the Sinai Law were much more than that and they can be found in Deut 27 and 28.
They applied to the children of Israel under the Sinai Covenant.God then made a new one in Christ and the curses of the old no longer apply.
We have a different set of conditions that apply in the New.

Mark you say that there are many references to the Law in the NT and rightly so.As Paul said

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We therefore learn from the Law but are not under it. The Sinai Law is no longer our guide to how we should live but we are guided instead by the Spirit of God that lives in us.
It is the teachings of Jesus which should take prominence since He is now our teacher,Saviour and King.

One example in Scripture that I remeber Paul used the Law is

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.


If you look at the context though we see that Paul isn't using the application of the Law literally here but using the example of the ordinance/commandment to teach a principle.It wasn't oxen though that Paul was referring to but people.

Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.



Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him(Paul) in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man(Paul), that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

As far as Messies go, whether Jesus was Torah observant or not shouldn't matter. He was a Jew, they are not.
They are not part of the covenant, and no amount of Torah observance is going to change that.

Excellent point SheitlQueen