SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Although this issue has been brought up in discussions in different threads, I think we need to address it as a specific topic.

For many in Hebrew Roots, the concept that Jesus kept the law of Moses, or kept Torah, gives the impetus for "keeping Torah", "keeping the Law of Moses", which they define as keeping the first five books of the Bible. They declare that since Jesus kept Torah we also must keep it.

Part of the believed strength in their argument for this is found in:

Matthew 5:17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So, what do you think? Was Jesus 'Torah observant"?

Born out of a woman
under the law
Yes i think He was torah observant.
But
a BIG BUT......
Since we are not born under the law as in those days
its not the Q if we habe to follow/keep torah
since the torah is 5 books and how would we "keep"5 books.
I think the law is in the torah.
Not the torah IS the law.
And Jesus added some stuff to it:
There is written, but I say!!!!
So there where some changes.
I hear people say allot he did n t change it....law of God cannot be changed.
Well since i believe Jesus is God in flesh
He is allowed to change anything He wants.
He came to change a system!
Not the law itself.

So do we "keep"torah?
I don t thnik so.
We keep God's law and we can because of Him.
He does the willing and the working.
(cup clean from inside, not only outside.)

EMJE

(03-18-2009 05:18 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]Although this issue has been brought up in discussions in different threads, I think we need to address it as a specific topic.

For many in Hebrew Roots, the concept that Jesus kept the law of Moses, or kept Torah, gives the impetus for "keeping Torah", "keeping the Law of Moses", which they define as keeping the first five books of the Bible. They declare that since Jesus kept Torah we also must keep it.

Part of the believed strength in their argument for this is found in:

Matthew 5:17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So, what do you think? Was Jesus 'Torah observant"?

Well you said it all, really, right there. Sure we can debate all day and night many of the letter's of the Taught ones or the 1st century believer's. But those 3 little verses from Yeshua sum it all up.
Verse 18 clearly says that "till heaven and earth pass away.... till all be fulfilled". Well heaven and earth are still here so, it stands to this reason then that not EVERYTHING is fulfilled. And if you "teach men" to break the Torah or say it's ok to do so or you don't have to Obey, then you will be considered least in the Kingdom. That don't mean you won't be in the Kingdom but, none the less, there will be a judgment for that kind of disobedience and rebellion of the Torah or better translated "instruction from the Father".
Of course our "High Priest" was Toarah observant. And Of course the "Salvation of the Father" was Torah observant. How could HE not be? He was sent from the Father and found "blameless". Amein and Amein

Quote:Well you said it all, really, right there. Sure we can debate all day and night many of the letter's of the Taught ones or the 1st century believer's. But those 3 little verses from Yeshua sum it all up.
Verse 18 clearly says that "till heaven and earth pass away.... till all be fulfilled". Well heaven and earth are still here so, it stands to this reason then that not EVERYTHING is fulfilled. And if you "teach men" to break the Torah or say it's ok to do so or you don't have to Obey, then you will be considered least in the Kingdom.

Jesus was speaking to those under the Law there, and the Old Covenant was still in force since Jesus had not died yet.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The thing is that Jesus said that not one jot or title would pass till all be fulfilled.

In Luke 24 we see how the Law and Prophets have been fulfilled in Him.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Notice that He didnt say that the Prophets and Law would never pass away but that the Law wouldnt pass until all be fulfilled. With Christ's birth,death and resurrection,they were fulfilled.
The prophets don’t pass away because they spoke words from God and they are relevant forever. But the Mosaic law had to pass away so that the words of the Prophets ,that promised a New Covenant, could be fulfilled.

If I take these commandments in verse 19 to be the mosaic law then why in just a few verses ahead does Jesus then change some of the commandments that were actually found in the Mosaic Law.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If we notice on all of these, Jesus does not annul the Law perse but instead adds to it more stringent commands.He expands on the concept so to speak. From milk to meat metaphorically speaking.The standards are raised and what may have been allowed ,due to the hardness of their hearts and due to the immaturity is now no longer allowed.The standards of holiness are indeed raised further.Be ye perfect as I am perfect says verse 48.
Jesus is giving the commandments for the Kingdom of God which the Sinai ones pointed to.The next chapter continues with Jesus giving commandments and instruction.
So I cannot say for sure that the commandments that Jesus is referring to in verse 19 are the mosaic ones.
It could be that Jesus was making a point about the Pharisees and warning them about how negating the commandments of God by their tradition were thus causing the people to not observe the commandments, since he makes reference to them in the very next verse saying

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Thus he could have been saying that they and those who do likewise will be least in the Kingdom even tho here on earth they enjoyed positions of being teachers and based on that would have expected to be great in the Kingdom.
The righteousness of the pharisees was not a true righteousness.It was based on false appearances and a concentration on external acts of law keeping as opposed to the right heart issue. They were whitewashed tombs as Jesus called them and presented a clean pleasant outward exterior while their hearts hid all sorts of filth.
So when Jesus said that our righteousness had to exceed that of the pharisees he certainly did not mean that we had to keep Torah or the precepts of the written Torah better than them.That would not have made sense in the light of the context.What Jesus meant was that our true righteousness had to exceed theirs.Our inner hearts and attitudes had to be real and not use our works and outward appearances to deceive ourselves that that is true righteousness which pleases God.

Jesus continues giving commands and teaching for 3 chapters and it concludes with the following verses.Notice that is is His sayings and teaching that people must heed .

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

(12-10-2011 03:19 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Well you said it all, really, right there. Sure we can debate all day and night many of the letter's of the Taught ones or the 1st century believer's. But those 3 little verses from Yeshua sum it all up.
Verse 18 clearly says that "till heaven and earth pass away.... till all be fulfilled". Well heaven and earth are still here so, it stands to this reason then that not EVERYTHING is fulfilled. And if you "teach men" to break the Torah or say it's ok to do so or you don't have to Obey, then you will be considered least in the Kingdom.

Jesus was speaking to those under the Law there, and the Old Covenant was still in force since Jesus had not died yet.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The thing is that Jesus said that not one jot or title would pass till all be fulfilled.

In Luke 24 we see how the Law and Prophets have been fulfilled in Him.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Notice that He didnt say that the Prophets and Law would never pass away but that the Law wouldnt pass until all be fulfilled. With Christ's birth,death and resurrection,they were fulfilled.
The prophets don’t pass away because they spoke words from God and they are relevant forever. But the Mosaic law had to pass away so that the words of the Prophets ,that promised a New Covenant, could be fulfilled.

If I take these commandments in verse 19 to be the mosaic law then why in just a few verses ahead does Jesus then change some of the commandments that were actually found in the Mosaic Law.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If we notice on all of these, Jesus does not annul the Law perse but instead adds to it more stringent commands.He expands on the concept so to speak. From milk to meat metaphorically speaking.The standards are raised and what may have been allowed ,due to the hardness of their hearts and due to the immaturity is now no longer allowed.The standards of holiness are indeed raised further.Be ye perfect as I am perfect says verse 48.
Jesus is giving the commandments for the Kingdom of God which the Sinai ones pointed to.The next chapter continues with Jesus giving commandments and instruction.
So I cannot say for sure that the commandments that Jesus is referring to in verse 19 are the mosaic ones.
It could be that Jesus was making a point about the Pharisees and warning them about how negating the commandments of God by their tradition were thus causing the people to not observe the commandments, since he makes reference to them in the very next verse saying

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Thus he could have been saying that they and those who do likewise will be least in the Kingdom even tho here on earth they enjoyed positions of being teachers and based on that would have expected to be great in the Kingdom.
The righteousness of the pharisees was not a true righteousness.It was based on false appearances and a concentration on external acts of law keeping as opposed to the right heart issue. They were whitewashed tombs as Jesus called them and presented a clean pleasant outward exterior while their hearts hid all sorts of filth.
So when Jesus said that our righteousness had to exceed that of the pharisees he certainly did not mean that we had to keep Torah or the precepts of the written Torah better than them.That would not have made sense in the light of the context.What Jesus meant was that our true righteousness had to exceed theirs.Our inner hearts and attitudes had to be real and not use our works and outward appearances to deceive ourselves that that is true righteousness which pleases God.

Jesus continues giving commands and teaching for 3 chapters and it concludes with the following verses.Notice that is is His sayings and teaching that people must heed .

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

For one thing not "all" things have been fulfilled. So, since that is the truth, then my point and that verse still stands true.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

That's exactly correct. HE did not, repeat, DID NOT, come to destroy or to do away with. And HE says HE came to fulfill. All to often people think that means he fulfilled everything in the old testament. And that is not what he says in either of the above verses or anywhere for that matter. HE did fulfill "ALL" the Prophecies of his coming and Sacrifice and resurrection. But that in no way implies he came to do away with the Law (very bad translation. Torah does not mean law. It means Instruction)

You are also correct when you say "Jesus was speaking to those under the Law there, and the Old Covenant was still in force since Jesus had not died yet."
Why is it you think that all that was at Mt Sinai were Jews? It clearly says it was a "mixed multitude" and included Stranger, sojourners, and aliens. WE ARE ALL UNDER THE "INSTRUCTIONS" ( not the curse of the law) OF GOD. That whole premise is ludicrous in my opinion.

Quote:For one thing not "all" things have been fulfilled. So, since that is the truth, then my point and that verse still stands true.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

That's exactly correct. HE did not, repeat, DID NOT, come to destroy or to do away with. And HE says HE came to fulfill. All to often people think that means he fulfilled everything in the old testament. And that is not what he says in either of the above verses or anywhere for that matter. HE did fulfill "ALL" the Prophecies of his coming and Sacrifice and resurrection. But that in no way implies he came to do away with the Law (very bad translation. Torah does not mean law. It means Instruction)

Well, first you say that not all things have been fulfilled and then in the last paragraph you said that He fulfilled all the prophecies.So which one is it?

So you say in your last paragraph that he fulfilled the prophets but yet the Law was not done away with.The verse I showed you from Luke was spoken by Jesus after His Resurrection

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Thus the prophets are fulfilled and the Law is done away with.This doesn't mean we now ignore the Law but we recognize that it has been superseded by a better one.If you insist that we are still under that Law then we must be bound to all its precepts.That includes men marrying their brother's widows, stoning Sabbath breakers and adulterers etc etc.Is that really what you think we should be doing Mark?

Also I'd be interested to know what you think still remains to be fulfilled.

Quote:You are also correct when you say "Jesus was speaking to those under the Law there, and the Old Covenant was still in force since Jesus had not died yet."
Why is it you think that all that was at Mt Sinai were Jews? It clearly says it was a "mixed multitude" and included Stranger, sojourners, and aliens. WE ARE ALL UNDER THE "INSTRUCTIONS" ( not the curse of the law) OF GOD. That whole premise is ludicrous in my opinion.

The instructions of God at this moment in history are for us to obey Jesus and listen to Him.The instructions of Moses to the children of Israel were the conditions attached to the Sinai Covenant.God did however promise a New Covenant, not like the old one which the people broke.(Jer 32).Jesus came and ushered in that New Covenant.He gave instructions and told us of the Way. The Sinai Covenant contained the shadows of the reality which is the one in Christ and now that Jesus has come why should we still obey commandments that related to a covenant which is no longer in force?

Like I told you in another post, if you want to obey Sinai Law then your High Priest is not Jesus but an earthly one.

Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Heb 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
Heb 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

As you see there the High Priest according to the law was a mere man and as such had to offer sacrifices for both himself as well as the people. This was in the past however since now
It is Jesus who is our High Priest.
Mark you see to want us to still be under the obligations of the Mosaic Covenant but can you not see that al that became obsolete once Christ came into the world,suffered and died.What would be the use of getting priests to offer sacrifices for us when the final sacrifice has already been made.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


There are two different covenants Mark and we cannot be in both.The first was just a shadow as the following verses illustrate and the second is said to be better and based on better promises.

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

(12-11-2011 07:12 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:For one thing not "all" things have been fulfilled. So, since that is the truth, then my point and that verse still stands true.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

That's exactly correct. HE did not, repeat, DID NOT, come to destroy or to do away with. And HE says HE came to fulfill. All to often people think that means he fulfilled everything in the old testament. And that is not what he says in either of the above verses or anywhere for that matter. HE did fulfill "ALL" the Prophecies of his coming and Sacrifice and resurrection. But that in no way implies he came to do away with the Law (very bad translation. Torah does not mean law. It means Instruction)

Well, first you say that not all things have been fulfilled and then in the last paragraph you said that He fulfilled all the prophecies.So which one is it?

So you say in your last paragraph that he fulfilled the prophets but yet the Law was not done away with.The verse I showed you from Luke was spoken by Jesus after His Resurrection

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Thus the prophets are fulfilled and the Law is done away with.This doesn't mean we now ignore the Law but we recognize that it has been superseded by a better one.If you insist that we are still under that Law then we must be bound to all its precepts.That includes men marrying their brother's widows, stoning Sabbath breakers and adulterers etc etc.Is that really what you think we should be doing Mark?

Also I'd be interested to know what you think still remains to be fulfilled.

Quote:You are also correct when you say "Jesus was speaking to those under the Law there, and the Old Covenant was still in force since Jesus had not died yet."
Why is it you think that all that was at Mt Sinai were Jews? It clearly says it was a "mixed multitude" and included Stranger, sojourners, and aliens. WE ARE ALL UNDER THE "INSTRUCTIONS" ( not the curse of the law) OF GOD. That whole premise is ludicrous in my opinion.

The instructions of God at this moment in history are for us to obey Jesus and listen to Him.The instructions of Moses to the children of Israel were the conditions attached to the Sinai Covenant.God did however promise a New Covenant, not like the old one which the people broke.(Jer 32).Jesus came and ushered in that New Covenant.He gave instructions and told us of the Way. The Sinai Covenant contained the shadows of the reality which is the one in Christ and now that Jesus has come why should we still obey commandments that related to a covenant which is no longer in force?

Like I told you in another post, if you want to obey Sinai Law then your High Priest is not Jesus but an earthly one.

Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Heb 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
Heb 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

As you see there the High Priest according to the law was a mere man and as such had to offer sacrifices for both himself as well as the people. This was in the past however since now
It is Jesus who is our High Priest.
Mark you see to want us to still be under the obligations of the Mosaic Covenant but can you not see that al that became obsolete once Christ came into the world,suffered and died.What would be the use of getting priests to offer sacrifices for us when the final sacrifice has already been made.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


There are two different covenants Mark and we cannot be in both.The first was just a shadow as the following verses illustrate and the second is said to be better and based on better promises.

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

So you say in your last paragraph that he fulfilled the prophets but yet the Law was not done away with.The verse I showed you from Luke was spoken by Jesus after His Resurrection
Also I'd be interested to know what you think still remains to be fulfilled.

This isn't hard to understand. What HE clearly meant was, HE, Yeshua did fulfill all that was Prophesied about HIM and concerning HIM from Moses to the Prophets, in regards to #1 His Coming #2His sacrifice #3 His Resurrection and Ascension to the right hand of the Father. If those things that were Prophesied about concerning the above, didn't happen , then HE would not be the Messiah. Prophecies and Law (Torah.. Instructions) are not the same thing.
And you ask me what hasn't been fulfilled. Well we can start with the absolutely obvious things, there are many more;
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

For one thing the KJV gets this way wrong, which is how so much of this is sooo misunderstood. However, lets just take what it says here in the first place and pretend that KJV got it right.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest

If this is what you are saying the New Covenant is then I ask you..Are the Laws (Torah)so into your mind and so wrote on your heart, that like it says ..And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest
That means that when we have this "New"(incorrect translation) Covenant we will no longer have to teach anyone because we will all know It (The Torah) And all men will Know HIM. So, there will be absolutely no need to have to Evangelize or witness to people in regards to the Good New's and the Messiah, because we will all know HIM and HIS Torah.
Also "that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."
Notice here that HE says concerning ME. There is way more to the New Covenant the just things concerning Yeshua.
If all thing's were truly fulfilled then we would have no need for these debates because we would know. And part of this New Covenant is in regards to there being no Sin anymore basically because the Law(Torah) will be wrote on our Hearts and minds so , it would be impossible to go against HIS Torah. Truly things can not be completely fulfilled till after the 1000 year reign, in which by the way, Yeshua will be our high priest here on earth.

Like I told you in another post, if you want to obey Sinai Law then your High Priest is not Jesus but an earthly one.

Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Notice here "the word of the Oath" what is the Oath? it says the law maketh men Priest which have infirmity(weakness). The Oath which came after the Torah was the promise of a Messiah our True High Priest.


There are two different covenants Mark and we cannot be in both.The first was just a shadow as the following verses illustrate and the second is said to be better and based on better promises.

Why do you think we can't be in both? Where does anything ever say that when another Covenant is given we no longer have the others? There are more then just 2 Covenants and we are heirs to all the promises and Covenants made since the beginning. To think that our Great and Mighty God didn't know what HE was doing when HE made any and all Covenants and promises to us is plain crazy !! You seriously think our GOD changes HIS mind??HE is a Unchanging Unchangeable Totally righteous GOD.

Quote:And you ask me what hasn't been fulfilled. Well we can start with the absolutely obvious things, there are many more;
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

For one thing the KJV gets this way wrong, which is how so much of this is sooo misunderstood. However, lets just take what it says here in the first place and pretend that KJV got it right.

In what way do you think the KJV has it wrong? I have a feeling that you are going to say that the word new there means renewed.Am I right?

Quote:Why do you think we can't be in both? Where does anything ever say that when another Covenant is given we no longer have the others? There are more then just 2 Covenants and we are heirs to all the promises and Covenants made since the beginning. To think that our Great and Mighty God didn't know what HE was doing when HE made any and all Covenants and promises to us is plain crazy !! You seriously think our GOD changes HIS mind??HE is a Unchanging Unchangeable Totally righteous GOD.

Of course God changes His mind.I will give you some examples later as I am very pressed for time right now.
When you say that we are all heirs to the promises since the beginning , it really does depend on whether you are jewish or not.As Paul said gentiles have become co inheritors etc in the New Covenant , but it was not so under the Sinai one. Otherwise why would Paul say that
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


Some of the people that Paul was addressing there were gentile and as such aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.Yes we can say that people were free to join as strangers and soujourners but Paul still says they were strangers and aliens.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

I will address your other question later as I have to rush

Quote:If this is what you are saying the New Covenant is then I ask you..Are the Laws (Torah)so into your mind and so wrote on your heart, that like it says ..And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest
That means that when we have this "New"(incorrect translation) Covenant we will no longer have to teach anyone because we will all know It (The Torah) And all men will Know HIM. So, there will be absolutely no need to have to Evangelize or witness to people in regards to the Good New's and the Messiah, because we will all know HIM and HIS Torah.

I think that you are assuming there that it is the Sinai Laws that are written on our hearts. Since you yourself admit that Torah means instruction, wouldn't it be more correct to say that God's instructions will be written on our hearts.
Would you also agree that nothing physical is actually written on our hearts and that the phrase is a metaphor?
Let's consider what Paul wrote to the Corinthians regarding the Neew Covenant and things being written on the heart

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

It seems that Jeremiah(in ch 31) was already alluding to the contrast between the letter of the Law that was written on tablets of stone and the action of the Holy spirit that engraved the Law of God upon our hearts. It is not the same covenant though Mark.It is not the Old one renewed but a new one that is not like the Old one. The Law could only make us aware of our sin but it couldn't create in us the right heart to obey it. Therefore it condemned us. It is the Spirit in us that changes us


2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


The laws that are written figuratively on my heart are not the ones that belonged in the Old. If the priesthood etc have been done away with how can I then have them in me to obey them. The laws that commanded us to stone people for their sin, to take my sacrifice to an earthly high priest, etc are just not in me. Instead what is written on my heart are the commands of Jesus. To love our neighbour as ourself, to have mercy, compassion etc.

Mark did you know that anti missionaries use the same argument about Messiah not having become because all the world does not know God.They use an erroneous interpretation of the verse


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It seems to me you are separating this verse out of the whole context of the New Covenant as we know it from the New Testament writings.
The way I see it is that no longer will man have to teach another how to obey God since the Holy Spirit in us will do the teaching. Ancient Israel relied on the prophets, priests and scribes to know about God.We tend to forget that they didn't have Bibles back then 
Isaiah prophesied about this also when he wrote

Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Jesus referred to this verse when He said
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me has everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

So you see Mark, in the New Covenant it is not the case that people will no longer have to witness etc as you wrote.You are essentially saying that we will all have no teaching at all and will just automatically know God.
John quotes Isaiah who speaks of messianic times also saying that they will all be taught of the Lord. This doesn’t conflict with Jeremiah when he says that no longer will man have to teach each other(as the Old Covenant system required) but that God Himself would be our teacher.