SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

During the time when I was active in the Messianic/Hebrew Roots movement, I attended a Messianic congregation where we were to use the "proper" Jewish words for Jesus Christ, Christian, church, etc. That also included the Christian holidays, such as Easter and Christmas.

To make a long story short, I was pretty ignorant of all this substitution of terms and words, therefore I felt it would be a good idea to give the leader (they call them Rabbis not Pastors) of our congregation an Easter card. So I did. I found out real quick that my decision was WRONG! I was told that Easter is pagan and that I should be giving out Passover cards instead. I was looking for the nearest chair under which I could crawl and hide! I thought for sure I had committed the "unpardonable sin"!

It's true that Easter has pagan roots...but this day has been adopted by Christianity as the day we commemorate the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, are New Testament Christians commanded to "keep the Passover"? Since Christ is our Passover, has the Passover been fulfilled in Christ? Does the Lord's Supper/Communion supercede Passover as a "memorial meal" in remembrance of His death, til He come?

Any thoughts?

Hello Linda

With Eastern coming soon i was thinking on this issue to lately.
Last year i "celebrated"passover with some people on paltalk.
Beautiful service, with nice music, good teaching end mice chatting.
In the 3 years i was involved in the messianic movement, i switched from eastern to pssover, from christmas to sukkoth etc etc.
Now that i am out of it, i reaaly am confused, what to celebrate?
9th of april is passover and a few days later eastern on thee calendar.

My

Passover is a rememberence to the liberation from egypt, the blood on the doorr so the angel of dead would pass.
I see that as us being saved from the world(egypt)
the blood that was shed when Jesus died, is my blood on my doorpost(my life).
The 40 years in the wilderness, i see as my life with Jesus Christ, saved but still in the desert(world).
This desert can be awfull, dry and no water, hot and no shade.....but

The promise is there, i will reach kanaaán.

About eastern:

On this day the church looks back at the ressorection of Jesus........that was the "crown"on His dead en blood shed.
For me those 2 feasts are connected.
Without His dead ....no ressorection.
And wheter the calendar is right on wrong, i don t care.
In the week of 8th april until the 13th....i want to meditate, ponder about what all this means to me personally.
So i will attend a chtroom where they "do" passover
and i will also attend a chatroom
where they "do" eastern.
Why?
Because i don t have a local church and no believers as friends in real life. So i remember His dead and His ressorection that week.
Thankfull that i belong to God's family and that He brought me out of egypt. And that He also died for me!


HE IS RISEN

EMJE

(03-28-2009 08:59 AM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]Hello Linda

With Eastern coming soon i was thinking on this issue to lately.
Last year i "celebrated"passover with some people on paltalk.
Beautiful service, with nice music, good teaching end mice chatting.
In the 3 years i was involved in the messianic movement, i switched from eastern to pssover, from christmas to sukkoth etc etc.
Now that i am out of it, i reaaly am confused, what to celebrate?
9th of april is passover and a few days later eastern on thee calendar.

My

Passover is a rememberence to the liberation from egypt, the blood on the doorr so the angel of dead would pass.
I see that as us being saved from the world(egypt)
the blood that was shed when Jesus died, is my blood on my doorpost(my life).
The 40 years in the wilderness, i see as my life with Jesus Christ, saved but still in the desert(world).
This desert can be awfull, dry and no water, hot and no shade.....but

The promise is there, i will reach kanaaán.

About eastern:

On this day the church looks back at the ressorection of Jesus........that was the "crown"on His dead en blood shed.
For me those 2 feasts are connected.
Without His dead ....no ressorection.
And wheter the calendar is right on wrong, i don t care.
In the week of 8th april until the 13th....i want to meditate, ponder about what all this means to me personally.
So i will attend a chtroom where they "do" passover
and i will also attend a chatroom
where they "do" eastern.
Why?
Because i don t have a local church and no believers as friends in real life. So i remember His dead and His ressorection that week.
Thankfull that i belong to God's family and that He brought me out of egypt. And that He also died for me!


HE IS RISEN

EMJE

My questions concerning Easter, christmas etc. Ask: Is what you do, done as a church? Should we discern what we do as a body, having come together, or what we do privately? It seems the eggs, bunnies, baskets etc. are private personal things we do. When we gather corporately, what do we assemble as a church as an assembly in worship [/b]and acknowledgment? We neither bring our eggs, baskets, bunnies to our assemblies; Nor do we bring our trees, and tinsel, ornaments etc. These are private things we do apart from our assemblies, Coming together in honoring our Lord. So I am inclined to say, it is up to our own conscience about these things. So also I do wonder, if messianics, and the like minded, are not bringing things to attention, which they ought not? Should they feel their conscience is violated, by what members do apart from the assembly? Those having such convictions of mind, are not emboldened to do anything, while assembling in christ. For those things of conscience, are not done there, as a body. Who is doing what should not be done? Should these private things not be left between each man/ woman themselves and God? Is it those who judge, these things, which are dissembling, over things to be kept between an individual and thier LORD? These are the questions I have. In this I see a similarity to the messianic view, of some congregations. The one I attended, did not demand gentiles keep jewish law. They left it up to conscience. BUT.... when we did bring food to the shabbat services, for sharing, we were to bring nothing but KOSHER. Nobodies conscience was defiled because some did not keep kosher privately. So I think maybe the same can apply to holidays. We simply do not bring many of those things, to the assembly, to do them.
Thoughts?
Ralliann

(03-27-2009 11:23 PM)LindaR Wrote: [ -> ]To make a long story short, I was pretty ignorant of all this substitution of terms and words, therefore I felt it would be a good idea to give the leader (they call them Rabbis not Pastors) of our congregation an Easter card. So I did. I found out real quick that my decision was WRONG! I was told that Easter is pagan and that I should be giving out Passover cards instead. I was looking for the nearest chair under which I could crawl and hide! I thought for sure I had committed the "unpardonable sin"!

It's true that Easter has pagan roots...but this day has been adopted by Christianity as the day we commemorate the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, are New Testament Christians commanded to "keep the Passover"? Since Christ is our Passover, has the Passover been fulfilled in Christ? Does the Lord's Supper/Communion supercede Passover as a "memorial meal" in remembrance of His death, til He come?

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I am sure giving an Easter card to a Messianic "Rabbi" was a bit embarrassing. Hopefully, they told you nicely

I believe that Jesus is alive, not dead. So I celebrate His resurrection every moment of my life. Living day to day just doing what He is leading me to do is about all I can handle without doing more stuff.

The reason for this is that when I was a Messianic, my life was consumed with proper "halacha". I spent hours and hours studying, reading, learning how to live a kashrut lifestyle, as well as getting rid of all "paganism" in my life [which is impossible]. I spent hours shopping on line for Jewish things to put in my home. And more hours arranging my life to exude Jewishness. Planning for the next feast was life consuming. As I look back, it was a tangled web that was designed to take my focus off Christ and onto what "I" could do to please Him with "stuff".

What I observe in both Christianity and Messianicism is the desire to "be busy" - to find that "niche" of feeling God, of being special to Him by "doing". In my discussions with a lady that I knew, I asked her why her liturgies were so important to her. She told me that without them, she would not experience God. So I often wonder if people really believe that without all the "busyness" of their desired lifestyle and religious practice if they really feel that without it, they don't "experience" God. Isn't that what religion really teaches people?

For me, Jesus is Life. Passover is not important or necessary to keep and neither is "Easter". Jesus told us to remember His death with wine/juice and bread - when we choose to do that [which is the Lord's Supper]. It is not a "sacrament" done on schedule or during a "Passover" celebration. The Lord's Supper as observed in the NT is this:

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered to you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do you, as oft as you drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Why whoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


Passover is fulfilled. There is nothing left of Passover that we need. Jesus is the Lamb slain, His blood for our sins and His resurrection so that we might live eternally. Why would one want to celebrate what has already been accomplished? It would be like re-celebrating your first birthday when you are 60 years old

I understand if people feel moved to celebrate Jesus' resurrection, but by celebrating Passover, one is really putting the suggestion in their head that going back to the "ancient paths" will lead them to "experience God more fully". Comparing the Passover Seder [which is totally Rabbinical/Talmudic and denies Christ] with Christ, when it has nothing to do with Him, is playing with fire, in my opinion

As you brought the verse up - let's look at it in context:

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I truly, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that has so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Is Paul actually instructing to keep Passover, or is he saying that one "keeps the feast" because we are new lump of unleavened bread, not full of leaven aka sin which works its way through the whole loaf? In other words, we "keep Passover" by purging sin [malice and wickedness] from our lives, replaced with sincerity and truth.

(03-28-2009 03:20 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-27-2009 11:23 PM)LindaR Wrote: [ -> ]To make a long story short, I was pretty ignorant of all this substitution of terms and words, therefore I felt it would be a good idea to give the leader (they call them Rabbis not Pastors) of our congregation an Easter card. So I did. I found out real quick that my decision was WRONG! I was told that Easter is pagan and that I should be giving out Passover cards instead. I was looking for the nearest chair under which I could crawl and hide! I thought for sure I had committed the "unpardonable sin"!

It's true that Easter has pagan roots...but this day has been adopted by Christianity as the day we commemorate the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, are New Testament Christians commanded to "keep the Passover"? Since Christ is our Passover, has the Passover been fulfilled in Christ? Does the Lord's Supper/Communion supercede Passover as a "memorial meal" in remembrance of His death, til He come?

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I am sure giving an Easter card to a Messianic "Rabbi" was a bit embarrassing. Hopefully, they told you nicely

I believe that Jesus is alive, not dead. So I celebrate His resurrection every moment of my life. Living day to day just doing what He is leading me to do is about all I can handle without doing more stuff.

The reason for this is that when I was a Messianic, my life was consumed with proper "halacha". I spent hours and hours studying, reading, learning how to live a kashrut lifestyle, as well as getting rid of all "paganism" in my life [which is impossible]. I spent hours shopping on line for Jewish things to put in my home. And more hours arranging my life to exude Jewishness. Planning for the next feast was life consuming. As I look back, it was a tangled web that was designed to take my focus off Christ and onto what "I" could do to please Him with "stuff".

What I observe in both Christianity and Messianicism is the desire to "be busy" - to find that "niche" of feeling God, of being special to Him by "doing". In my discussions with a lady that I knew, I asked her why her liturgies were so important to her. She told me that without them, she would not experience God. So I often wonder if people really believe that without all the "busyness" of their desired lifestyle and religious practice if they really feel that without it, they don't "experience" God. Isn't that what religion really teaches people?

For me, Jesus is Life. Passover is not important or necessary to keep and neither is "Easter". Jesus told us to remember His death with wine/juice and bread - when we choose to do that [which is the Lord's Supper]. It is not a "sacrament" done on schedule or during a "Passover" celebration. The Lord's Supper as observed in the NT is this:

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered to you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do you, as oft as you drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Why whoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


Passover is fulfilled. There is nothing left of Passover that we need. Jesus is the Lamb slain, His blood for our sins and His resurrection so that we might live eternally. Why would one want to celebrate what has already been accomplished? It would be like re-celebrating your first birthday when you are 60 years old

I understand if people feel moved to celebrate Jesus' resurrection, but by celebrating Passover, one is really putting the suggestion in their head that going back to the "ancient paths" will lead them to "experience God more fully". Comparing the Passover Seder [which is totally Rabbinical/Talmudic and denies Christ] with Christ, when it has nothing to do with Him, is playing with fire, in my opinion

As you brought the verse up - let's look at it in context:

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I truly, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that has so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Is Paul actually instructing to keep Passover, or is he saying that one "keeps the feast" because we are new lump of unleavened bread, not full of leaven aka sin which works its way through the whole loaf? In other words, we "keep Passover" by purging sin [malice and wickedness] from our lives, replaced with sincerity and truth.

I had an entire post time out in my browser and lost everything I typed out...will come back later tonight and repost...if I can remember what I said.

Basically, I agree with everything you said in your post.

sheep wrecked Wrote:Passover is fulfilled. There is nothing left of Passover that we need. Jesus is the Lamb slain, His blood for our sins and His resurrection so that we might live eternally. Why would one want to celebrate what has already been accomplished? It would be like re-celebrating your first birthday when you are 60 years old

I understand if people feel moved to celebrate Jesus' resurrection, but by celebrating Passover, one is really putting the suggestion in their head that going back to the "ancient paths" will lead them to "experience God more fully". Comparing the Passover Seder [which is totally Rabbinical/Talmudic and denies Christ] with Christ, when it has nothing to do with Him, is playing with fire, in my opinion

When I was a "babe in Christ' another Messianic Jew invited me and the lady who led me to the Lord to a "Messianic" Passover seder. It was held in a Presbyterian Church. Being new in Christ, I didn't understand that the Passover seder came from the Talmud and was also Rabbinical. I learned alot at that seder that night. During the entire time I spent in the Messianic movement and attending the MJ congregation, I went to those seders every year...the congregation hosted one every year. Would you mind explaining the origins of the Passover seder?

IMHO, I believe the New Testament Christian should be partaking of the Lord's Supper (according to 1 Corinthians 11:23-29) in the fellowship of a local body of believers/church....as often as ye drink this cup and eat this bread....in remembranc of me...

Is it because the MJ/HR are "stuck" in the Torah/Law/Old Covenant the reason why they "keep the Passover" through the practice of eating a seder meal and keeping all the feasts of Israel?

(03-28-2009 11:58 PM)LindaR Wrote: [ -> ]When I was a "babe in Christ' another Messianic Jew invited me and the lady who led me to the Lord to a "Messianic" Passover seder. It was held in a Presbyterian Church. Being new in Christ, I didn't understand that the Passover seder came from the Talmud and was also Rabbinical. I learned alot at that seder that night. During the entire time I spent in the Messianic movement and attending the MJ congregation, I went to those seders every year...the congregation hosted one every year. Would you mind explaining the origins of the Passover seder?

If ones compares what is written in the Torah concerning keeping the Passover to a Rabbinical Seder - there is little resemblance. Asking the four questions and eating lamb is about it

It is my opinion that Rabbinical additions were made because once the Temple was destroyed, Torah had to be "re-interpreted". There was no way to keep Torah according to Biblical standards. No sacrifice for sin, no sacrifices for the feasts. Judaism has completely "recreated" a Jewish religion that is far from what was given to B'nai Israel.


I found this interesting link from a Jewish site that shows some of the Rabbinical Seder concepts:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays...inic.shtml

and this brief one [bolding in red is mine]:

Quote:The Origins of the Seder and Haggadah
Joshua Kulp
Schechter Institute for Jewish Studies, Jerusalem, kulp@uscj.org

Emerging methods in the study of rabbinic literature now enable greater precision in dating the individual components of the Passover seder and haggadah. These approaches, both textual and socio-historical, have led to a near consensus among scholars that the Passover seder as described in rabbinic literature did not yet exist during the Second Temple period. Hence, cautious scholars no longer seek to find direct parallels between the last supper as described in the Gospels and the rabbinic seder. Rather, scholarly attention has focused on varying attempts of Jewish parties, notably rabbis and Christians, to provide religious meaning and sanctity to the Passover celebration after the death of Jesus and the destruction of the Temple. Three main forces stimulated the rabbis to develop innovative seder ritual and to generate new, relevant exegeses to the biblical Passover texts: (1) the twin calamities of the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple and the Bar-Kokhba revolt; (2) competition with emerging Christian groups; (3) assimilation of Greco-Roman customs and manners. These forces were, of course, significant contributors to the rise of a much larger array of rabbinic institutions, ideas and texts. Thus surveying scholarship on the seder reviews scholarship on the emergence of rabbinic Judaism.

http://cbi.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/4/1/109

Quote:Is it because the MJ/HR are "stuck" in the Torah/Law/Old Covenant the reason why they "keep the Passover" through the practice of eating a seder meal and keeping all the feasts of Israel?

They want to be more Jewish, I would assume. For me, I was of the belief that the Jewish people still perfectly kept Torah as given, and therefore; whatever they did for the feasts was acceptable interpretation from God. When you are shown that the Jews really were showing the Messiah in the Seder "blindly" and how cool it was that they were actually proving that Jesus was their Messiah, then the Seder only was proved to be "righteous".

The sad thing is that the Seder has nothing to do with Christ. All the symbolism does not point to Him, but to a system that replaces Him with their own religion [and this system denies Him, rejects Him, and denigrates Him]. It is the worst kind of deception in Messianic Judaism. Now Christianity is accepting the Seder as a way to "fully" understand Passover and Christ's sacrifice. I find this so appalling that it stuns me.

Thanks for the links sheep...the last post where I quoted you with the links got the "bot" ban man upset again.

sheep wrecked Wrote:They want to be more Jewish, I would assume. For me, I was of the belief that the Jewish people still perfectly kept Torah as given, and therefore; whatever they did for the feasts was acceptable interpretation from God. When you are shown that the Jews really were showing the Messiah in the Seder "blindly" and how cool it was that they were actually proving that Jesus was their Messiah, then the Seder only was proved to be "righteous".

The sad thing is that the Seder has nothing to do with Christ. All the symbolism does not point to Him, but to a system that replaces Him with their own religion [and this system denies Him, rejects Him, and denigrates Him]. It is the worst kind of deception in Messianic Judaism. Now Christianity is accepting the Seder as a way to "fully" understand Passover and Christ's sacrifice. I find this so appalling that it stuns me.

I apparently got "caught up" in the symbolism thing at that first "Messianic" Passover Seder...as did the people who came with me. Are you familiar with Jews for Jesus and Moishe Rosen's book, "Christ In The Passover"?

(03-29-2009 03:23 PM)LindaR Wrote: [ -> ]I apparently got "caught up" in the symbolism thing at that first "Messianic" Passover Seder...as did the people who came with me. Are you familiar with Jews for Jesus and Moishe Rosen's book, "Christ In The Passover"?

I believe that Jews or Jesus is doing a good thing in bringing people to Christ. But the other side of me is very concerned and wonders what Gospel is being preached? J4J has some teachings and concepts that make me very nervous and Christ in the Passover is one of them because it clearly represents the Talmudic Seder as allegory of Christ and there is no way that it does. J4J also uses the Star of David in their logo and that does not set well with me either.

sheep wrecked Wrote:I believe that Jews or Jesus is doing a good thing in bringing people to Christ. But the other side of me is very concerned and wonders what Gospel is being preached? J4J has some teachings and concepts that make me very nervous and Christ in the Passover is one of them because it clearly represents the Talmudic Seder as allegory of Christ and there is no way that it does. J4J also uses the Star of David in their logo and that does not set well with me either.

I met Moishe Rosen back in the mid 70s when I was living in Colorado. The MJ/HRM does not like him for some reason. At one time, J4J was very conservative but now have become pretty ecumenical, IMO.

J4J isn't the only group who uses the Star of David as their logo. I have heard that the Star of David has occultic origins. The Israeli flag also uses the Star of David. Where does one begin to look for information on the origins of the Star of David? Or should I start another thread on the origins of the Star of David?