SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Not going to even ATTEMPT to post links until I have 100 posts!! Call me paranoid, but that "ban" bot man has gotten me 3 times in one week..and he might not recognize anything under 100...LOL!

(04-06-2009 06:59 PM)LindaR Wrote: [ -> ]Not going to even ATTEMPT to post links until I have 100 posts!! Call me paranoid, but that "ban" bot man has gotten me 3 times in one week..and he might not recognize anything under 100...LOL!

ok, at a 100 posts [15 to go!] - we'll have a party!!!

I think you get the next sword in the series then too!

Sorry this is short, but I recall reading online that the "Big Book"
used by AA was chanelled to the leader/founder of AA. Apparantly
some spirit channelled the AA ideas............I don't have
the websites.
Remember in AA you say "I am an alchoholic" at every meeting.
God doesn't say you are a drunk, etc. If you are saved you
become a "new creation". Drunkeness is a sin of the flesh and
has been dealt with by Christ...............I'm sure it is also an
addiction. I'm not anti AA but I would be careful with it.

SingingSurf,

The entire AA program and the off-shoots of the AA's 12 steps are based, not on the Bible, but in the occult. The founders, Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith were heavily into spiritism and the 12 steps were written while Bill Wilson was in a trance state. Martin & Deidre Bobgan have an excellent website: psychoheresy-aware.org where you can find alot of very good information about AA and all the self-help programs which are based upon the 12 steps of AA.

I recommend that Christians stay away from AA altogether.

I agree!

, "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him." Jesus Christ is never mentioned in the 12 Steps. This is not surprising considering the source from which the 12 Steps originated.


Stref:

this is enough for me to reject them. "God as we understood him"? A Hindu understanding (one among many)? The Muslim understanding? A gnostic understanding?

This is religion without the power of God for that only comes in Christ Jesus. Thus all AA has is cold turkey legalism, not grace. (the trouble is too many churches have the same: cold turkey legalism backed up by an albiet sound doctrine of God but which, as dead letter, is unbelieved)

AS for whether the founder of AA were such and such, to me that is irrelevant as stories that they were occultists may be slander. But the plain text of their main document, the 12 steps here quoted, is plain.

I have all I need to reject AA here: their empty weasel words about God designed to get people in their doors and to falsely offer false hope but no real grace. As for my own addictions, I wil be convicted (in perfect peace without condemnation, that is ALWAYS what I meant by the term) of the sin of them by the Holy Spirit, and repent of them without mediators of any kind, also without willpower striving and certainly without regret, a St Paul describes somewhere.

A friend of mine was badly deceived by the AA cult a few years ago. I watched the deception play a large role in destroying her life which she is just now starting to recover from. The cult is most certainly Satanic. One aspect of the AA deception that I'd like to point out that is rarely discussed or recognized is that it subtly encourages innocent victims to accept responsibility for injustices that have been commited against them. What ends up happening is that the person that falls for this deception has their sense of responsibility and accountability corrupted. Often this results in allowing people to grossly take advantage of them or even enjoy being taken advantage of; also they tend to blame victims of crimes instead of the perpetrators.
The way that this is done is to preach hyper accountability for 'their part' in whatever it was that was done to them. If no part, then the responsibility is in their REACTION to whatever was done to them. Basically, it's a method of transferring responsbility [/i]from the people doing bad things over to the people that have bad things done to them. Like many occultic deceptions, it is very subtle in its perversion.

I see this deception everywhere now, it's not unique to just AA. It may not sound like it's that big of a deal, but I believe this is one of the more damaging deceptions out there.

resolute

(11-10-2010 10:53 PM)resolute Wrote: [ -> ]A friend of mine was badly deceived by the AA cult a few years ago. I watched the deception play a large role in destroying her life which she is just now starting to recover from. The cult is most certainly Satanic. One aspect of the AA deception that I'd like to point out that is rarely discussed or recognized is that it subtly encourages innocent victims to accept responsibility for injustices that have been commited against them. What ends up happening is that the person that falls for this deception has their sense of responsibility and accountability corrupted. Often this results in allowing people to grossly take advantage of them or even enjoy being taken advantage of; also they tend to blame victims of crimes instead of the perpetrators.
The way that this is done is to preach hyper accountability for 'their part' in whatever it was that was done to them. If no part, then the responsibility is in their REACTION to whatever was done to them. Basically, it's a method of transferring responsbility [/i]from the people doing bad things over to the people that have bad things done to them. Like many occultic deceptions, it is very subtle in its perversion.

I see this deception everywhere now, it's not unique to just AA. It may not sound like it's that big of a deal, but I believe this is one of the more damaging deceptions out there.

resolute

Could you explain this a little more clearly as I am not quite following what you are saying. What I find interesting is the hyper accountability mode because of my prior belief systems in both charismata and Hebrew Roots. Please clarify how this works. Thanx

Sorry that it took me so long to respond. AA encourages it's members to 'clean up their side of the street', or 'accept responsibility for your part in it' when evaluating circumstances in which they've been victimized. At first blush, this may seem like a healthy outlook...but in practice (or at least the way AA encourage people to practice this scree) it becomes progressively unhealthy. A really common example:

A woman going through the program has a lot of resentment against her husband, who is engaged in an affair with another woman(btw this is not gender specific at all, this is just an example). The husband blames the wife- "you don't support me", "you always shun me in the bedroom", "you tricked me into marrying you" etc etc. The woman's AA sponser now encourages the woman to examine her 'role' in how the situation has played out. So the woman tries to honestly examine her marriage and concludes that to some degree her husband is correct concerning his complaints. Next the sponser encourages the woman to 'make amends' and to apologize for her 'role' in her husbands affair. So the woman earnestly and humbly apologizes to her husband even as he continues his affair. Next the woman tries to 'make amends' for the things she has done wrong, which can mean different things to different people, but it usually means giving giving giving while the other person takes takes takes.
Also keep in mind that another AA axiom is that 'you can't control other people', which means that the woman is subtly encouraged to ignore her husband's affair moving forward. This is a bad thing, of course, as the husband is likely to interpret his wife's apologies, amends, and lack of further protests as a tacit endorsement or acknowledgement that his affair is his wife's fault, not his.
This 'antivictim' mentality is encouraged in all aspects of life by AA, regardless of the situation and regardless of the behaviour of the victimizer. After awhile, the AA member starts accepting 1000% blame for everything that is wrong with their life and everything that was ever wrong with their life, regardless of whether the blame is warranted or not. This leads to all sorts of bad stuff. Someone I know became engaged in BDSM sex, for example, because she developed a kind of Stockholm Syndrome and eventually came to embrace and enjoy being victimized. I don't want to write a book, but the side effects of this deception are very damaging and very extensive. In my experience embracing this aspect of AA causes severe cognitive impairment and also harms empathy for others (they believe victims refuse to take responsibility for their lives).

resolute

(11-11-2010 11:21 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-10-2010 10:53 PM)resolute Wrote: [ -> ]A friend of mine was badly deceived by the AA cult a few years ago. I watched the deception play a large role in destroying her life which she is just now starting to recover from. The cult is most certainly Satanic. One aspect of the AA deception that I'd like to point out that is rarely discussed or recognized is that it subtly encourages innocent victims to accept responsibility for injustices that have been commited against them. What ends up happening is that the person that falls for this deception has their sense of responsibility and accountability corrupted. Often this results in allowing people to grossly take advantage of them or even enjoy being taken advantage of; also they tend to blame victims of crimes instead of the perpetrators.
The way that this is done is to preach hyper accountability for 'their part' in whatever it was that was done to them. If no part, then the responsibility is in their REACTION to whatever was done to them. Basically, it's a method of transferring responsbility [/i]from the people doing bad things over to the people that have bad things done to them. Like many occultic deceptions, it is very subtle in its perversion.

I see this deception everywhere now, it's not unique to just AA. It may not sound like it's that big of a deal, but I believe this is one of the more damaging deceptions out there.

resolute

Could you explain this a little more clearly as I am not quite following what you are saying. What I find interesting is the hyper accountability mode because of my prior belief systems in both charismata and Hebrew Roots. Please clarify how this works. Thanx

(11-15-2010 11:55 PM)resolute Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry that it took me so long to respond. AA encourages it's members to 'clean up their side of the street', or 'accept responsibility for your part in it' when evaluating circumstances in which they've been victimized. At first blush, this may seem like a healthy outlook...but in practice (or at least the way AA encourage people to practice this scree) it becomes progressively unhealthy. A really common example:

A woman going through the program has a lot of resentment against her husband, who is engaged in an affair with another woman(btw this is not gender specific at all, this is just an example). The husband blames the wife- "you don't support me", "you always shun me in the bedroom", "you tricked me into marrying you" etc etc. The woman's AA sponser now encourages the woman to examine her 'role' in how the situation has played out. So the woman tries to honestly examine her marriage and concludes that to some degree her husband is correct concerning his complaints. Next the sponser encourages the woman to 'make amends' and to apologize for her 'role' in her husbands affair. So the woman earnestly and humbly apologizes to her husband even as he continues his affair. Next the woman tries to 'make amends' for the things she has done wrong, which can mean different things to different people, but it usually means giving giving giving while the other person takes takes takes.
Also keep in mind that another AA axiom is that 'you can't control other people', which means that the woman is subtly encouraged to ignore her husband's affair moving forward. This is a bad thing, of course, as the husband is likely to interpret his wife's apologies, amends, and lack of further protests as a tacit endorsement or acknowledgement that his affair is his wife's fault, not his.
This 'antivictim' mentality is encouraged in all aspects of life by AA, regardless of the situation and regardless of the behaviour of the victimizer. After awhile, the AA member starts accepting 1000% blame for everything that is wrong with their life and everything that was ever wrong with their life, regardless of whether the blame is warranted or not. This leads to all sorts of bad stuff. Someone I know became engaged in BDSM sex, for example, because she developed a kind of Stockholm Syndrome and eventually came to embrace and enjoy being victimized. I don't want to write a book, but the side effects of this deception are very damaging and very extensive. In my experience embracing this aspect of AA causes severe cognitive impairment and also harms empathy for others (they believe victims refuse to take responsibility for their lives).

resolute

I think I understand where you are going with this, but I don't see that type of "anti-victim" mentality as specific to AA. Or maybe your example is too "raw" for me considering that the church does the same thing to it's female abused and victimized members by telling them they must have done something wrong to make the abuser attack ... or that they just need to grin and bear it as their "cross"'.

I guess I am struggling with this due to the fact that a person who becomes alcoholic needs to take responsibility for their choices. It is not other people's fault that they have become what they are. As a Christian, we need to recognize our sin, not make excuses for it. What you have described sounds quite like the Catholic penance or Judaism's teshuvah, where you have to make amends for your sins and "mistakes" by giving to or doing for others.

All that said, I am completely against AA. I do not agree with the 12 steps, nor do I believe it is "Christian" in any way. It dumbs down God to be palatable as the "higher power" or "whoever that might be to the person", etc. I am aware of the deceptive practices otherwise.