SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Hi all. I found this forum while doing some research on kabala and messianic Judaism (if that is a correct term) because I am defending Scripture vs the so-called "spirit-led" written talmud with someone via email. From what I am reading, the group we've started attending a few months ago may not be what I should be doing. Can I ask a few questions?

My family and I left the main stream churches because of easter, sun-day, x mas, 7th day sabbath, etc. Are these "pagan" issues still valid? I'm trying to find out how "off" I am..

We 'home-churched' for a while but still felt we "shouldn't give up meeting like some do" so searched for some like-minded people to meet with and found this messianic judaism small group (very dysfunctional at best). We've been attending for about 7 months, but tapering off a bit, our family is not following the FFoZ to the letter and for me it's just been stressful. During this time we've been doing some of those "messianic" things I'm reading about, finding out that the name 'Jesus' has no meaning, we should be following the Torah commandments, wearing tzit-tzit, but not "too far" in, not into kippa, or tallit, etc. We've attended a handful of conferences, with an end-time camp-out coming up next week. I feel like I've been hit in the stomach. we JUST left "paganism" how could we already be deceived into believing more lies??

This week I finally "got the message" from God why I've been leary about this group when discussing talmud vs torah with this person via email. Every Scripture I pointed out, like 1 Jn 2:22 and chapters 4-5 on how to test the spirits, the Scriptures in Titus and 1st Tim about not paying attention to fables, about the star of remphan Stephen accused them of adopting, etc. This person believed that the Mezuzah with a teaspoon of scripture inside nailed to the door was following the commandment for writing "these words" on the doorposts. And said the talmud was "God-led" and necessary to understand God's word. Wow I just couldn't believe what I was reading.

But now what? What do we do with those commandments that are "forever"? How about tzit tzit? Is the 7th day still God's appointed day for us to rest? Have I gone totally crazy?

Thanks in advance for any encouragement

Hi Amariah,
A big to the forum and its great to see you jumped straight into post. Well to answer your last question first .I don’t think you have gone totally crazy.Your questions are understandable in the light of you having been studying FFOZ literature.I think you will enjoy the threads in this messianic Judaism section since we have a few that cover the points you have raised.
I think its so sad that many in the HR movement deceive people into thinking that everything to do with Christianity is pagan and that their way of doing it is the correct acceptable one. Then they suck up people into doing a bunch of useless rituals/prayers/practices that themselves are derived from superstition, kabbalah and /or non scriptural sources.

Quote:But now what? What do we do with those commandments that are "forever"? How about tzit tzit? Is the 7th day still God's appointed day for us to rest? Have I gone totally crazy?

The commandments that messianics say are forever actually belong to the old covenant.The one that the people broke as Jer 31 :31 says

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; my covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:

In the new covenant we are also given commandments by the mouth of Jesus himself.

Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he has established justice in the earth: and the coastlands shall wait for his law.

In the gospels( check out Matthew 5 to 7 especially) we see where Jesus teaches this Torah that the coastlands yearned for .Jesus came ushering in the New Covenant as promised. The Sinai which was a custodian til the Messiah would be revealed..served as shadows to the reality. The Torah of Jesus is a Torah for the whole world and for the kingdom of God not an earthly kingdom governed by human fallible kings as Israel had in the past.
Some threads you might enjoy reading are

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=61
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=65
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=29

(05-08-2009 02:14 AM)amariah Wrote: [ -> ]Hi all. I found this forum while doing some research on kabala and messianic Judaism (if that is a correct term) because I am defending Scripture vs the so-called "spirit-led" written talmud with someone via email. From what I am reading, the group we've started attending a few months ago may not be what I should be doing. Can I ask a few questions?

My family and I left the main stream churches because of easter, sun-day, x mas, 7th day sabbath, etc. Are these "pagan" issues still valid? I'm trying to find out how "off" I am..

We 'home-churched' for a while but still felt we "shouldn't give up meeting like some do" so searched for some like-minded people to meet with and found this messianic judaism small group (very dysfunctional at best). We've been attending for about 7 months, but tapering off a bit, our family is not following the FFoZ to the letter and for me it's just been stressful. During this time we've been doing some of those "messianic" things I'm reading about, finding out that the name 'Jesus' has no meaning, we should be following the Torah commandments, wearing tzit-tzit, but not "too far" in, not into kippa, or tallit, etc. We've attended a handful of conferences, with an end-time camp-out coming up next week. I feel like I've been hit in the stomach. we JUST left "paganism" how could we already be deceived into believing more lies??

This week I finally "got the message" from God why I've been leary about this group when discussing talmud vs torah with this person via email. Every Scripture I pointed out, like 1 Jn 2:22 and chapters 4-5 on how to test the spirits, the Scriptures in Titus and 1st Tim about not paying attention to fables, about the star of remphan Stephen accused them of adopting, etc. This person believed that the Mezuzah with a teaspoon of scripture inside nailed to the door was following the commandment for writing "these words" on the doorposts. And said the talmud was "God-led" and necessary to understand God's word. Wow I just couldn't believe what I was reading.

But now what? What do we do with those commandments that are "forever"? How about tzit tzit? Is the 7th day still God's appointed day for us to rest? Have I gone totally crazy?

Thanks in advance for any encouragement

amariah

Glad you joined to ask these important questions. As you can see we have a wealth of writings both in the forum and on the website concerning these very issues. What you are asking is found discussed on many threads--all the differenct aspects.

That there are issues in churches is no doubt. All that flies under the banner of Christian is not of Christ. But then, calling it all pagan is not right either. Jesus is not a pagan name nor a pagan god.

The talmud was written by those who rejected Jesus Christ, and denigrate Him in those writings. While it is viewed as above the OT---notice I said OT because the NT is not recognised whatsoever as truth or Scripture by it's writers or promoters--it is not Scripture.

What I want to tell you is that in your pursuit of getting closer to God, you were actually being led away from the Truth of Christ and the NT, as well as being able to understand the OT in light of the NT and what was fulfilled by and in Christ. I have often thought of it as peeling the layers of an onion of belif and undermining and removing the very foundation on which we stand, which is Jesus Christ.

I know others are going to likely post and share things with you, but what I think would be good is if you took the time and read this forum. And then we can help you further with things that need to be answered. Because many have been pulled into these things, they are much discussed here, as to what and why the error is there, and why Scripturally and factually something is right or wrong.

Obviously, that you had doubts concerning FFOZ is because God is wanting you to understand and because you desire the truth and hopefully desire to live for Christ. Which isn't a pagan concept either.

You haven't gone crazy but you have been deceived, but not totally. And now you have some studying to do to understand why and how that happened.

Hebrews 12:1-3 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Ephesians 1:17-23 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Colossians 1:9-10 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10. That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 2:2-17 2. That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3. In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


Be encouraged amariah, God is not done with you. The desire for fellowship, and seeing error in the church or under the banner of "Christian", has led many into these things, which are just as bad and worse at times, than what you may have left. In your search, you missed the most important thing. It isn't about anything but Christ. A relationship with Him, and living for Him, because of Him and by Him. It's fully about Him.

(05-08-2009 02:14 AM)amariah Wrote: [ -> ]Hi all. I found this forum while doing some research on kabala and messianic Judaism (if that is a correct term) because I am defending Scripture vs the so-called "spirit-led" written talmud with someone via email. From what I am reading, the group we've started attending a few months ago may not be what I should be doing. Can I ask a few questions?


Thanks in advance for any encouragement

amariah!!!

How wonderful that God led you to this forum!

We don't want you to be confused or stressed out

Having been where you are at one time - if you are confused and stressed, it's not of God. He is not the author of confusion. I totally understand the "draw" of the Messianic venue, but I think when you read the threads you will see that it's system built on man-made traditions that have deceived people into thinking they are doing things God's way

If I may suggest reading my testimony, which specifically deals with my trip through Messianicism, I think you will find some similiar experiences and hopefully will help you move back into the simplicity of Christ

http://fortheloveoftruth.wordpress.com/ancient-paths/

I see that you have a lot of questions, most of which is covered in the threads - especially those in the Hebrew Roots section. We welcome your interest and pray that you will find the peace of Christ here as you come to see God's truth without the encumbrances of the Messianic teachings. Please feel free to ask questions - we would love to dialogue with you!

amariah!!

You have come to the right place for answers to questions on the HRM/Messianic Movement. That's how I found this forum. I've been using this site (before there was a forum) for a long time....I find it to be a great resource.

I came out of the HRM/Messianic Movement 30 years ago. I have posted my testimony on this forum (Jesus Christ is my Sabbath rest). It briefly states why I came out of the Messianic Movement.

Again....

(05-08-2009 01:34 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-08-2009 02:14 AM)amariah Wrote: [ -> ]Hi all. I found this forum while doing some research on kabala and messianic Judaism (if that is a correct term) because I am defending Scripture vs the so-called "spirit-led" written talmud with someone via email. From what I am reading, the group we've started attending a few months ago may not be what I should be doing. Can I ask a few questions?


Thanks in advance for any encouragement

amariah!!!

How wonderful that God led you to this forum!

We don't want you to be confused or stressed out

Having been where you are at one time - if you are confused and stressed, it's not of God. He is not the author of confusion. I totally understand the "draw" of the Messianic venue, but I think when you read the threads you will see that it's system built on man-made traditions that have deceived people into thinking they are doing things God's way

If I may suggest reading my testimony, which specifically deals with my trip through Messianicism, I think you will find some similiar experiences and hopefully will help you move back into the simplicity of Christ

http://fortheloveoftruth.wordpress.com/ancient-paths/

I see that you have a lot of questions, most of which is covered in the threads - especially those in the Hebrew Roots section. We welcome your interest and pray that you will find the peace of Christ here as you come to see God's truth without the encumbrances of the Messianic teachings. Please feel free to ask questions - we would love to dialogue with you!

What a wonderful testimony Sheep

Thank you all for your kind words. And for linking to the threads for me, that is very helpful. Is there a search just for threads?

sheep wrecked (very cute name), I actually read your testimony yesterday b/c it came up on a search page. I passed it around to a few other people who may be thinking the same as me. Your story made me think I do NOT want to even go that far into things.

Still about your testimony, on the greek translation, even though it is good, I won't condemn it, one person, Don Esposito of coyhwh.com. has put out a literal translation using only Hebrew and Aramaic, and on video he "proves" Aramaic is has primacy over a greek translation, showing in Scripture a few misinterpretations of Hebrew idioms that the greeks would not understand (because they didn't invite a Jew to the translation party?). I'm sure all agree no person has everything correct in every aspect of everything here on earth. The reason I'm sharing this is because in your testimony you seemed to be like me, kind of Berean-ish, and like to prove things out. (i'm sure that is why I have these problems in the first place). I am anxious to see if the "rooster" that crowed 3 times was the early morning call for priests to come to their duties, and if Rahab was really an Innkeeper instead of a harlot, etc etc. Anyway he goes through the Scriptures pointing some of these out on the video called "Aramaic Origins of the New Testament" under the video section.

You wrote: "if you are confused and stressed, it's not of God. He is not the author of confusion." I have to giggle here, that is exact verbatim that the person I am dialoging with about her Talmud said to me b/c I was sharing NT Truth. :-D

Today I told the kids we would be backing off what we've been getting into and will study and focus on the "commandments" Yeshua/Jesus left for us to live out with His Spirit. Which, actually the whole problem was actually the mutation of legalistic adherence to rules for sabbath, etc. that was the problem then right? It was all done without the Spirit.

---

(05-08-2009 03:20 PM)LindaR Wrote: [ -> ] amariah!!

You have come to the right place for answers to questions on the HRM/Messianic Movement. That's how I found this forum. I've been using this site (before there was a forum) for a long time....I find it to be a great resource.

I came out of the HRM/Messianic Movement 30 years ago. I have posted my testimony on this forum (Jesus Christ is my Sabbath rest). It briefly states why I came out of the Messianic Movement.

Again....

Hi Linda;
Thank you for the nice welcome

I loved reading your testimony! It is a reminder to me that I should review what miracles have been done in my life, there are many things, maybe I'll add mine up there too.

I've been receiving Aviad Cohen's newsletters, which you would enjoy. He's a Jewish music artist who found Jesus. His testimony is very cool. Lately he's been getting alot of hate mail because he listed online the kabala/talmud anti-messianic backgrounds of some of the things in Judaism and he encourages all to read Galations. I sent his list of 24 items a true believer in Yeshua should never have in their possession to the group members of our study, and boy did I get it too.. LOL. His site is aviadcohen.com.

blessings

ooh dear here I am reading along and find out there is no posting links until 50 posts.. sorry I just jumped in without thinking there. Please forgive. I tried editing but it was after 25 minutes. sorry.

(05-08-2009 07:42 PM)amariah Wrote: [ -> ] ooh dear here I am reading along and find out there is no posting links until 50 posts.. sorry I just jumped in without thinking there. Please forgive. I tried editing but it was after 25 minutes. sorry.

Not to worry amariah.

We won't or even about it.

Or even

It had to be implemented because of people who joined just to spam us. Lot's have done it, but we appreciate that you are trying to abide the forum rules.

Hi amariah and

Ever so glad that the Lord has lead you to this forum.

This site has sooooooo much information here that will help you - just take your time as you read through all the info and ask lots and lots of questions.


I've never been in HR movement but have come across their teachings all over the internet - this forum and the website is a great resource to help us be effective bereans.

Remembering you and your family in prayer as you start this journey (((hugs)))