SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Many wish to eliminate the deity of Jesus Christ, some in subtle ways and some blatantly. Many try to focus on Joseph being Jesus' father.

Joseph was husband of Mary. Those who did not believe or understand who He was, thought in the flesh, and could not understand that Joseph had nothing to do with Jesus' birth. Many use the following:

Matthew 1:16-19 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

The verses used are all in reference to Jesus Christ, "SON of God". Many within HR and those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, look at the 'son of Joseph' aspect because they reject who He is. By saying Joseph is His father or son of Joseph, they can subtly and not so subtly shift the beliefs to thinking in terms of Jesus' father was Joseph, hence a man like any other. He might be a prophet, a sage, a messenger from God, but to them, He is just a man.

That of course goes against many many foundational scriptures of who Jesus is.

Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Many are sourcing their beliefs and denial of the divinity of Christ, from those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and God manifest in the flesh, and who also reject the NT.

What would be the reason that makes someone think Christians should use the writings and beliefs of those who reject Jesus Christ and the New Testament?

(05-12-2009 04:04 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Many wish to eliminate the deity of Jesus Christ, some in subtle ways and some blatantly. Many try to focus on Joseph being Jesus' father.

Jesus was Jewish, and according to his Faith, which was Judaism, there is no such a thing as the Greek Mythology of a son of God. It is much better to have him as a son of Joseph's than to leave him at the mercy of agnostics who are only to ready to assign him a Roman as a father. Rapes of young ladies in the First Century by the Riomans was a daily picture.

[quote]Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

As you can see, Jesus' conteporaries knew he was a son of Joseph's.

Quote:Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

What else do you need? Even Philip, one of his disciples recognized him as a son of Joseph's.

Quote:Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Even his disciples knew Jesus was a son of Joseph's. Why should we make a big deal of it?

Quote:Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

These are interpolations by the Hellenistic writers of the gospels, who wrote about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone.

Quote:Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That's anoher Hellenistic writer who needed to deify the Pauline doctrine that Jesus was Christ.

Quote:Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The son of God here must be interpreted according to Exodus 4:22,23, when God said, "Israel is My son. So, let My son go that he may serve me." and about everlasting life, this is a Greek idea of the Hellenistic gospel writer John.

Quote:What would be the reason that makes someone think Christians should use the writings and beliefs of those who reject Jesus Christ and the New Testament?

If you do think so, you cannot use the only Bible that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God, because it does not acknowledge Jesus as Christ, the Messiah or son of God.

(03-06-2010 06:13 AM)Ben Masada Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:sheep:
What would be the reason that makes someone think Christians should use the writings and beliefs of those who reject Jesus Christ and the New Testament?

If you do think so, you cannot use the only Bible that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God, because it does not acknowledge Jesus as Christ, the Messiah or son of God.

From a Christian perspective, the entire Bible is about Jesus Christ - this is what the New Testament shows us. Christians believe that the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments are inspired and the Holy Word of God.

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, so the words of the Old Testament have equal "value" as the New Testament. Whatever Jesus spoke and said through His disciples [which He said they would speak what He spoke] are also considered inspired, Holy Scriptures. Again, this is from Christian belief because we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh > according to the Old and New Testaments.

Jesus is also the son of Joseph - He was included as a son of Joseph. A similar example would be Joseph naming Ephraim and Manasseh as sons - his heirs and full sons - from his own words. We know that Jesus was considered Joseph's son from the Gospels, as you quoted, but also because the sons of Joseph were considered his brothers. The "big deal" that Jesus was Joseph's son is made out of those who don't believe that Jesus is God, first and foremost

Judaism was not a religion of the first century. It was formed much later with the writings of the Talmud and probably most fully implemented during the middle ages when we can see the development of Rabbinical Judaism really filled out and practiced fully.

The Gospels were written by two of the personal witnesses that accompanied Jesus in His ministry. Luke interviewed many, including the disciples to give his account - which matches with Matthew and John. To blame "Hellenism" on the Gospels is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black due to the Hellenistic influence on the Jews long before the first century

In fact, we can see from the New Testament that Jesus objected to the corrupt religious form that was practiced in the first century and He spent His ministry showing His followers the true intent of God for us to understand and follow. What Moses spoke of Christ - that a prophet would come that people should listen to - really says it all.

John was an apostle before Paul. John's Gospel and his letters are some of the greatest proof that Jesus is God in the New Testament. Paul was taught directly by Christ, and therefore; his writings reflect the same truth that Jesus gave him.

Everlasting life is not a "John concept". It is an Old Testament concept that was brought to fulfillment in Jesus Christ. John and the disciples were first hand witnesses and their epistles all say the same thing - what Jesus had told them. Even Jesus own brother [Jude] wrote it.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Of course Israel was God's son - He said so Once the covenant was broken, the sons of God are considered those who believe in Jesus Christ [New Covenant] - again, this is Christian theology based on Old Testament concepts [Hosea for example]. Jesus said that the sons of God were those who believed on Him. Jesus, as the Son of God is different. He is the *only* begotten Son of God. Jesus was not just flesh - He is God, He is Spirit, God manifest in the flesh. Again, Christian theology based on Old Testament concepts - of which there are many OT verses that can compare with NT ones which prove this fully.

All that said, are you truly interested in dialoguing or in just cutting apart Christianity? This is a Christian forum where we welcome those who are truly looking for friendly discussion

(03-06-2010 12:34 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Ben Masada' pid='5464' dateline='1267870399']

Quote:From a Christian perspective, the entire Bible is about Jesus Christ - this is what the New Testament shows us. Christians believe that the entire Bible, Old and New Testaments are inspired and the Holy Word of God.

Are you a Christian? You give me the impression that you are not a Christian.

[quote] Again, this is from Christian belief because we believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh > according to the Old and New Testaments.

Good! You are a Christian. Can you quote a text in the Tanakh about Jesus being God manifest in the flesh. I don't recall to have ever read it.

Quote:Jesus is also the son of Joseph - He was included as a son of Joseph. A similar example would be Joseph naming Ephraim and Manasseh as sons - his heirs and full sons - from his own words.

It doesn't occur to me that Joseph ever named Ephraim and Manasseh as sons. They were his legitimate sons anyway.

Quote:Judaism was not a religion of the first century. It was formed much later with the writings of the Talmud and probably most fully implemented during the middle ages when we can see the development of Rabbinical Judaism really filled out and practiced fully.

As I can see, you are not too well-informed. The Talmud was written during the time between 200 BCE and until 200 ACE. In the First Century Judaism was well developed and advanced with a famous Sanhedrin making legal the decisions of Pharisees and Rabbis.

Quote: Luke interviewed many, including the disciples to give his account - which matches with Matthew and John.

If the gospels of Matthew and John match, I wonder why Matthew says that as soon as Jesus came out of the Jordan River after his immersion by John, he was taken into the wirlderness to be tempted by the Devil for 40 days and 40 nights. (Mat. 4:1) John ignores the whole buniness in the desert and sets Jesus celebrating his wedding party in Cana of the Galilee on the third day after his immersion. (John 2:1) Do you still call this a match?

Quote: What Moses spoke of Christ - that a prophet would come that people should listen to - really says it all.

Moses spoke of Joshua, a prophet like Moses. If that Prophet had been Jesus, you would be in big trouble, because you don't listen to him. He declared that he came to confirm the Law to the letter, even the dot of the letter, according to Matthew 5:17-19. Do you listen to Jesus with regards to the Law? I don't think so.

Quote:John was an apostle before Paul. John's Gospel and his letters are some of the greatest proof that Jesus is God in the New Testament. Paul was taught directly by Christ, and therefore; his writings reflect the same truth that Jesus gave him.

Yes, John was an apostle but he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. A Jew would not connect Greek Mythology with Judaism. We know that a man cannot be God.

Quote:Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is a reference to the Jews exiled in the Diaspora, who were considered as buried in the lands of the Gentiles. Read Isaiah 53:8,9; and Ezekiel 37:12.

Quote:Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Eternal life only God has it. Anyone else who was born cannot have eternal life.

Quote:Of course Israel was God's son - He said so Once the covenant was broken, the sons of God are considered those who believe in Jesus Christ [New Covenant] - again, this is Christian theology based on Old Testament concepts [Hosea for example]. Jesus said that the sons of God were those who believed on Him. Jesus, as the Son of God is different. He is the *only* begotten Son of God. Jesus was not just flesh - He is God, He is Spirit, God manifest in the flesh. Again, Christian theology based on Old Testament concepts - of which there are many OT verses that can compare with NT ones which prove this fully.

Sorry, but you assume too much with not even a quotation in the Tanakh to confirm what you assume.

Quote:All that said, are you truly interested in dialoguing or in just cutting apart Christianity? This is a Christian forum where we welcome those who are truly looking for friendly discussion.

Sorry, but you haven't said anything to persuade me that Christianity can be documented in Jewish Scriptures. All you want is for me to take your word for it, but it doesn't go that way.

If the guys who transcribed the NT weren't Jewish, what were they?

Jesus was Joseph's son in the way that an adopted baby is his adopted parents' son. Since He came in Human form as a flesh-and-blood Child, He needed His adoptive parents to care for Him as His earthly Body grew, like any other human baby. "Begotten" the way it is used in Scripture apparently means "born naturally", ergo God's only begotten Son = God's Son carried and born naturally. Jesus's Human Body was conceived supernaturally and born naturally.

Insulting the admins is never a good idea.

I'm starting to see more and more Messys claim that Jesus was not G-d.
I'm also seeing them deny portions of the NT that they can't make fit into
their beliefs. Even some- like the "netzarim" (Cliff Van Nest, for instance)
say only Matthew is valid, that it was written in Hebrew, and the rest of
the NT is false.

(03-07-2010 04:15 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote: [ -> ]I'm starting to see more and more Messys claim that Jesus was not G-d.
I'm also seeing them deny portions of the NT that they can't make fit into
their beliefs. Even some- like the "netzarim" (Cliff Van Nest, for instance)
say only Matthew is valid, that it was written in Hebrew, and the rest of
the NT is false.

Yes, that is the start of progressing to converting to Judaism.

However; it is a myth that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew - it was written in Greek. HR has to "prove" the NT as mistranslated, misinterpreted, and non-Greek but Semitic primacy in order for their belief system to hold up under the broad light of day. So they want to have it rewritten [they are *not* translations] from an HR perspective, hence all the versions in the HR movement like James Trimm's HRV, Marshall Koniuchowsky's RSTNE, The ISR, and Stern's CJB for examples.

(03-07-2010 04:46 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, that is the start of progressing to converting to Judaism.

Sometimes, although I think they should return to Christianity.
Some of them end up in traditional Judaism, but I think many of
them stay with their hybrid religion.

Quote:However; it is a myth that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew - it was written in Greek.

I agree; and Messys in general believe that the entire NT was written
in Hebrew. Absurd.

Quote: HR has to "prove" the NT as mistranslated, misinterpreted, and non-Greek but Semitic primacy in order for their belief system to hold up under the broad light of day. So they want to have it rewritten [they are *not* translations] from an HR perspective, hence all the versions in the HR movement like James Trimm's HRV, Marshall Koniuchowsky's RSTNE, The ISR, and Stern's CJB for examples.

Exactly. If you can't make the scriptures support your beliefs, then obviously the scripture is wrong-mis-translated from it's original Hebrew
into a falsified greek. What a laugh.

(03-07-2010 10:13 AM)Ben Masada Wrote: [ -> ]Good! You are a Christian. Can you quote a text in the Tanakh about Jesus being God manifest in the flesh. I don't recall to have ever read it.

You don't recall reading it because you don't want to see it. Again, this is based on CHRISTIAN interpretation of the OT. If you are not a Christian, it won't make sense for me to quote a bunch of verses that you will insist cannot be interpreted to define how we believe. I am sure that you are well aware of the texts that are used anyway

Quote:It doesn't occur to me that Joseph ever named Ephraim and Manasseh as sons. They were his legitimate sons anyway.

Sorry, I meant Jacob

Gen 48:5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Gen 48:6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.

Quote:As I can see, you are not too well-informed. The Talmud was written during the time between 200 BCE and until 200 ACE. In the First Century Judaism was well developed and advanced with a famous Sanhedrin making legal the decisions of Pharisees and Rabbis.

The Talmud was not written until 200 CE - 500 CE - it was known orally up to that point, but not written down until then. This is historical.

Judaism was not "advanced" at the first century. It was in the beginning sketches of it. The Pharisees eventually became the Rabbinical system after the fall of the Jerusalem in 70AD. The Talmud defines Judaism from around the middle ages. The Talmud also defines what the Sanhedrin did in the first century according to Judaism. According to history, the Sanhedrin judged on judicial and legislative cases under Roman authority in Jerusalem. The Sanhedrin dissolved soon after the destruction of Jerusalem [70AD] and was never again re-instituted.

Quote:If the gospels of Matthew and John match, I wonder why Matthew says that as soon as Jesus came out of the Jordan River after his immersion by John, he was taken into the wirlderness to be tempted by the Devil for 40 days and 40 nights. (Mat. 4:1) John ignores the whole buniness in the desert and sets Jesus celebrating his wedding party in Cana of the Galilee on the third day after his immersion. (John 2:1) Do you still call this a match?

John 2:1 says nothing of the sort - it is not referring to Jesus' baptism.

Quote: What Moses spoke of Christ - that a prophet would come that people should listen to - really says it all.

Quote:Moses spoke of Joshua, a prophet like Moses. If that Prophet had been Jesus, you would be in big trouble, because you don't listen to him. He declared that he came to confirm the Law to the letter, even the dot of the letter, according to Matthew 5:17-19. Do you listen to Jesus with regards to the Law? I don't think so.

We have found that if people post enough, eventually little details about their belief system just sort of pops out It appears that you were a Messsianic. Only Messianis say that Jesus confirmed the Law even to the dot of the letter per Matt 5:17-19. Christians know that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant aka "The Law/Torah"

Quote:Yes, John was an apostle but he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. A Jew would not connect Greek Mythology with Judaism. We know that a man cannot be God.

John the Jew, the beloved disciple of Jesus, did in fact write the Gospel of John. There is no "Greek mythology" in the book of John. Jesus was not a man that was God. This is where the mistake is made in understanding. God "manifested" Himself as a man, just as He did to Abraham [Gen 18].

Quote:sheep:
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Quote:This is a reference to the Jews exiled in the Diaspora, who were considered as buried in the lands of the Gentiles. Read Isaiah 53:8,9; and Ezekiel 37:12.

Everlasting life refers to dead and buried Jews??????

Quote:sheep:
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Quote:Eternal life only God has it. Anyone else who was born cannot have eternal life.

Psa 21:4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 41:12 And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever.

Quote:Sorry, but you assume too much with not even a quotation in the Tanakh to confirm what you assume.

It would be redundant for me to list Scriptures because you won't accept them. Christian interpretation is what it is. Judaism and Christianity are two different "religions" and therefore see the Scriptures from two different perspectives.

Quote:Sorry, but you haven't said anything to persuade me that Christianity can be documented in Jewish Scriptures. All you want is for me to take your word for it, but it doesn't go that way.

Isaiah 53
see my explanation here: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...86#pid5486

(03-07-2010 05:40 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-07-2010 10:13 AM)Ben Masada Wrote: [ -> ]Good! You are a Christian. Can you quote a text in the Tanakh about Jesus being God manifest in the flesh. I don't recall to have ever read it.

You don't recall reading it because you don't want to see it. Again, this is based on CHRISTIAN interpretation of the OT. If you are not a Christian, it won't make sense for me to quote a bunch of verses that you will insist cannot be interpreted to define how we believe. I am sure that you are well aware of the texts that are used anyway

Quote:It doesn't occur to me that Joseph ever named Ephraim and Manasseh as sons. They were his legitimate sons anyway.

Sorry, I meant Jacob

Gen 48:5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Gen 48:6 And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.

Quote:As I can see, you are not too well-informed. The Talmud was written during the time between 200 BCE and until 200 ACE. In the First Century Judaism was well developed and advanced with a famous Sanhedrin making legal the decisions of Pharisees and Rabbis.

The Talmud was not written until 200 CE - 500 CE - it was known orally up to that point, but not written down until then. This is historical.

Judaism was not "advanced" at the first century. It was in the beginning sketches of it. The Pharisees eventually became the Rabbinical system after the fall of the Jerusalem in 70AD. The Talmud defines Judaism from around the middle ages. The Talmud also defines what the Sanhedrin did in the first century according to Judaism. According to history, the Sanhedrin judged on judicial and legislative cases under Roman authority in Jerusalem. The Sanhedrin dissolved soon after the destruction of Jerusalem [70AD] and was never again re-instituted.

Quote:If the gospels of Matthew and John match, I wonder why Matthew says that as soon as Jesus came out of the Jordan River after his immersion by John, he was taken into the wirlderness to be tempted by the Devil for 40 days and 40 nights. (Mat. 4:1) John ignores the whole buniness in the desert and sets Jesus celebrating his wedding party in Cana of the Galilee on the third day after his immersion. (John 2:1) Do you still call this a match?

John 2:1 says nothing of the sort - it is not referring to Jesus' baptism.

Quote: What Moses spoke of Christ - that a prophet would come that people should listen to - really says it all.

Quote:Moses spoke of Joshua, a prophet like Moses. If that Prophet had been Jesus, you would be in big trouble, because you don't listen to him. He declared that he came to confirm the Law to the letter, even the dot of the letter, according to Matthew 5:17-19. Do you listen to Jesus with regards to the Law? I don't think so.

We have found that if people post enough, eventually little details about their belief system just sort of pops out It appears that you were a Messsianic. Only Messianis say that Jesus confirmed the Law even to the dot of the letter per Matt 5:17-19. Christians know that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant aka "The Law/Torah"

Quote:Yes, John was an apostle but he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. A Jew would not connect Greek Mythology with Judaism. We know that a man cannot be God.

John the Jew, the beloved disciple of Jesus, did in fact write the Gospel of John. There is no "Greek mythology" in the book of John. Jesus was not a man that was God. This is where the mistake is made in understanding. God "manifested" Himself as a man, just as He did to Abraham [Gen 18].

Quote:sheep:
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Quote:This is a reference to the Jews exiled in the Diaspora, who were considered as buried in the lands of the Gentiles. Read Isaiah 53:8,9; and Ezekiel 37:12.

Everlasting life refers to dead and buried Jews??????

Quote:sheep:
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Quote:Eternal life only God has it. Anyone else who was born cannot have eternal life.

Psa 21:4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psa 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 41:12 And as for me, thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever.

Quote:Sorry, but you assume too much with not even a quotation in the Tanakh to confirm what you assume.

It would be redundant for me to list Scriptures because you won't accept them. Christian interpretation is what it is. Judaism and Christianity are two different "religions" and therefore see the Scriptures from two different perspectives.

Quote:Sorry, but you haven't said anything to persuade me that Christianity can be documented in Jewish Scriptures. All you want is for me to take your word for it, but it doesn't go that way.

Isaiah 53
see my explanation here: http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...86#pid5486

---

John 2:1 is talking about the third day after the Jews sent priests and Levites to ask him (John the Baptist) who he was, not the third day after Jesus was baptised.