SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

(05-17-2011 04:43 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: [ -> ]Totally agree with your posts Mary and I too await Nearyah's amswer to where you asked

Quote:what is this "other gospel"? what does "perverting" the gospel of Christ mean?

Quote:Jesus was the sacrifice for all our sins- atonement, redemption, salvation. He ended it,by accepting God's righteous judgement. The law of Moses contained sacrifices for atonement of sin - Christ's death took that away. with Christ's new law, we have a new priest - Christ . He is the law, he is the priest, he is the sacrifice: it is new it is not the law of Moses.

If Nearyah wants to stay in the Mosaic Covenant then Jesus isn't his High Priest,he needs to find an aaronic one instead and go by the Mosaic law regarding sacrifices and the like.

This is a cross post because it is significant in why Peter had the vision of the sheet and the reality of the new covenant and a new law. Re the significance of God making the Gentiles and all food clean in Peter's vision. Individuals were made clean by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because of believing Christ and all He did for us. And because now, God had declared food clean and the law moved out of the way, blotted out and abolished, the Jews were also made clean solely by the Holy Spirit. Nothing was to be viewed as being made unclean or made clean by the Law of Moses. It was ALL removed in place of the cleansing of the Holy Spirit because of Christ dying for our sins. There could be no separation from others or anything for any law based reason. None. Otherwise, if it was only people cleansed, Israel still would be unable to keep company or eat with Gentiles or enter their dwellings to share Jesus Christ-and vice versa. And there could never be unity between believers of different race. And that would overturn in it's entirety the very essence of loving one another as Christ loved all of us.

It wasn't just the truth of seeing the fulfillment of prophecy concerning the Gentiles having salvation through faith. It was that the Jews too also had redemption and salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. One new man in Christ, united in the faith and doctrine once delivered to the saints by Christ through the apostles, and also conveyed to them via the Holy Spirit . And it no longer meant abiding the Sinai Covenant but the promised New Covenant, ie Christ and His law written on our hearts. Both Jews and Gentiles. That is really the summation of the Gospel. People who do not believe that and claim to be believers but want to go by 'clean/unclean' of the Mosaic law, are overturning the Truth of who Christ is and what He did, and many, many Scriptures.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

We see the recurring theme of His sacrifice being the culmination of prophecy and promise. The change from the old to the new. Eternal versus the temporal...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Clearly, Jesus was the final sacrifice which purified all who believe. And He took away the first sacrifices and offerings and offerings for sin via the law, and became the one and only final sacrifice which sanctifies, meaning purifies all before God.

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

No other could make a sin sacrifice or offering that lasted for ever and simulataneously and subsequently be pure or righteous enough to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sanctified, that is, purified by Christ and each who believe are made complete in Him, and able to be with Him for all eternity. And the crux of the matter being, the promised New Covenant. Where God would write His laws on our hearts and in our minds, because of His promise, and our sins and iniquities would be remembered no more. Christ having already taken the punishment for all our sins.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

And clearly if our sins are remembered no more by God, there is no more offering needed ever for sin.

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

remissionG859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
Thayer Definition:
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Just as the law and pattern of the temple were a shadow and example of the heavenly and what Jesus was to accomplish, the temple and Sinai laws had their purposes which were fulfilled when Christ died. Jesus Christ having purified the way, and removed the veil, He alone is the High Priest over the house of God.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

If it had been possible to attain perfection through the law established Levitical priesthood--there would have been no need for Christ to come after the order of Melchisdec---having no beginning and no end, showing His divinity. And because of that change, that Christ was not of the Levitical priesthood made under the law, but from God, it required, it necessitated a change of the law.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

Christ came as the New Covenant, bringing salvation and eternal life, which was never a part of the Levitical priesthood or encompassed in the Mosaic Law.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Because of that, the abolition, putting away of the commandments contained in the Sinai covenant, because it had proven weak and unprofitable. Not because the law itself was not good, but because people are imperfect and continuously faltered in attempting to keep it, and failed, and absolutely none were ever sin free.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

disannullingG115
ἀθέτησις
athetēsis
Thayer Definition:
1) abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G114

Because the law made nothing perfect, that is, completed or perfected and without sin, the promise of that better hope in the New Covenant, authored and provided by God Himself, made it possible to be completed in Christ.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Promised by God Himself, Jesus was made the surety or bondsman or the pledge of the better testament or covenant. Priests always died and could never keep giving the required sin sacrifice. Jesus stands forever, and ever makes intercession for us. Therefore we have an unchangeable priesthood that can never die. Pure, holy , sinless and made higher than the heavens, He lives for us. The final sacrifice, once for all. Unlike the prior high priests of the Sinai covenant who had to make sin sacrifices and purify themselves, and who still were not perfect through specific rituals, before attempting to give those limited sacrifices for sin for others, Jesus died once. And because of the oath by God that Jesus would be the priest forever consecrated, which has been since the law was first established. No one can undo what God declared.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The summation of these truths:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews is believed to have been written before the destruction of the Temple, which is why it states v 13 and similar. The destruction of the temple ended the "example and shadow of the heavenly things". Which is why Moses was admonished to make things precisely as God commanded. The promised New Covenant promised by God had arrived.

The promises were made by God 430 years before the Sinai Covenant. The promises were made to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ. The law cannot disannul or overturn the promises of the new covenant.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Why did Israel serve the law. Because of transgessions/sin UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME. So the law was the schoolmaster for Israel until Christ came. That the promise by faith of Jesus Christ would justify all. No longer under the law, but walking in faith in Jesus Christ, according to God's promise of salvation and the new covenant.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

All are sanctified in the exact same way-via believing Christ [faith] and the indwelling Holy Spirit. All are to have the same doctrine of Christ and the gospel as conveyed by the apostles. All have redemption the same way. All have God's Law written on their hearts and minds--these same things should be understood in our doctrine because of Christ. That it is the fulfillment of prophecy. God's promised salvation and redemption to all who believe.

The righteousness which came by the law, via the temple worship in the Sinai covenant is symbolic with the indwelling of His Spirit since we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit.

The very example and symbolism of the law and all it contained was totally the example of what Christ did and who He is. We have no righteousness of our own or through the law. He alone is our righteousness...

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I feel a little confused after reading some of the other posts on this thread. It appears as though nothing other than faith is required of us in the New Covenant. Christ gave some very specific teachings on obediance, keeping commandments, and how one enters life:

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. (KJV)

Matt 19:16-21
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (KJV)

Mark 10:29-30
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (KJV)

Luke 10:25-28
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. (KJV)

There are other NT teachings that express the significance of an individuals deeds and actions, and obediance to commandments:

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (KJV)

James 2:20-21
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (KJV)

Rom 2:5-13
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (KJV)

I Jn 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (KJV)

I Jn 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (KJV)

I Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (KJV)

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.(KJV)

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (KJV)

My understanding is that the Father's laws have been intact since the beginning of Creation. If not, how could Adam and Eve have been guilty of sin? How would mankind have known right from wrong?

It is highly emphasized in the Scriptures how God does not desire for man to outwardly obey Him by following the letter of the law through works of the flesh, without first receiving it inwardly. (the uncircumsized of the heart)

Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (KJV)

This is why the Pharisees were so often criticized. They desired to have the appearance of righteousness, by an outward expression of actions.

Matt 3:7-8
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (KJV)

They were also guilty of placing their own traditions before the commandments of God.

Mark 7:6-9
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (KJV)

One must have the spirit to fulfill the law:

Gal 3:2-3
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(KJV)

Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (KJV)

1 Cor 9:9-12
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(KJV)

Quote:I feel a little confused after reading some of the other posts on this thread. It appears as though nothing other than faith is required of us in the New Covenant. Christ gave some very specific teachings on obediance, keeping commandments, and how one enters life:

Sari that is because the topic of the thread is whether Christ brings a new Torah ie a different sent of commands than the ones given Moses and based on different conditions too.
So the emphasis on faith will be because in the Old Covenant the promises were passed down through Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob who became Israel and thus his descendants.The Covenant was made with Israel not with Gentiles andas Paul put it, Gentiles were aliens to the covenant of promise.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world


In the New it is no longer enough to be a descendant of Jacob.All now have to enter in through Jesus and His Covenant.
Remember what Christ said?


Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote:My understanding is that the Father's laws have been intact since the beginning of Creation. If not, how could Adam and Eve have been guilty of sin? How would mankind have known right from wrong?

It is highly emphasized in the Scriptures how God does not desire for man to outwardly obey Him by following the letter of the law through works of the flesh, without first receiving it inwardly. (the uncircumsized of the heart)

Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (KJV)

This is why the Pharisees were so often criticized. They desired to have the appearance of righteousness, by an outward expression of actions.

Matt 3:7-8
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (KJV)

They were also guilty of placing their own traditions before the commandments of God.

Mark 7:6-9
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (KJV)

I agree with all you said above until we come to where you said

Quote:One must have the spirit to fulfill the law:

Gal 3:2-3
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(KJV)

Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (KJV)

1 Cor 9:9-12
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(KJV)

I see that the verses quoted do not say that one must have the Spirit to obey the Law and instead the Galatians verse leads us to think the opposite since those gentiles received the Spirit while not obeying the Law.By Law here I mean Mosaic Law since sometimes,esp in this thread the term law can be used to mean both Mosaic and God's Law.Paul then tells them that if they received the Spirit by hearing and believing ie by faith and not by doing the Law, why then did they think that after that they should need to obey that very law that they didn't need to receive the Spirit by in the first place.

I am glad that you quoted that Corinthians verse since it shows Paul using the Law as a teacher according to the Spirit and not the letter.
According to the letter Paul would have been teaching on the care of oxen but we see the principle being used for people instead.I believe this is how we should use the Law , as Paul said

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

(05-18-2011 06:59 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ] This is a cross post because it is significant in why Peter had the vision of the sheet and the reality of the new covenant and a new law. Re the significance of God making the Gentiles and all food clean in Peter's vision. Individuals were made clean by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because of believing Christ and all He did for us. And because now, God had declared food clean and the law moved out of the way, blotted out and abolished, the Jews were also made clean solely by the Holy Spirit. Nothing was to be viewed as being made unclean or made clean by the Law of Moses. It was ALL removed in place of the cleansing of the Holy Spirit because of Christ dying for our sins. There could be no separation from others or anything for any law based reason. None. Otherwise, if it was only people cleansed, Israel still would be unable to keep company or eat with Gentiles or enter their dwellings to share Jesus Christ-and vice versa. And there could never be unity between believers of different race. And that would overturn in it's entirety the very essence of loving one another as Christ loved all of us.

It wasn't just the truth of seeing the fulfillment of prophecy concerning the Gentiles having salvation through faith. It was that the Jews too also had redemption and salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. One new man in Christ, united in the faith and doctrine once delivered to the saints by Christ through the apostles, and also conveyed to them via the Holy Spirit . And it no longer meant abiding the Sinai Covenant but the promised New Covenant, ie Christ and His law written on our hearts. Both Jews and Gentiles. That is really the summation of the Gospel. People who do not believe that and claim to be believers but want to go by 'clean/unclean' of the Mosaic law, are overturning the Truth of who Christ is and what He did, and many, many Scriptures.

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

We see the recurring theme of His sacrifice being the culmination of prophecy and promise. The change from the old to the new. Eternal versus the temporal...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Clearly, Jesus was the final sacrifice which purified all who believe. And He took away the first sacrifices and offerings and offerings for sin via the law, and became the one and only final sacrifice which sanctifies, meaning purifies all before God.

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

No other could make a sin sacrifice or offering that lasted for ever and simulataneously and subsequently be pure or righteous enough to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sanctified, that is, purified by Christ and each who believe are made complete in Him, and able to be with Him for all eternity. And the crux of the matter being, the promised New Covenant. Where God would write His laws on our hearts and in our minds, because of His promise, and our sins and iniquities would be remembered no more. Christ having already taken the punishment for all our sins.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

And clearly if our sins are remembered no more by God, there is no more offering needed ever for sin.

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

remissionG859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
Thayer Definition:
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Just as the law and pattern of the temple were a shadow and example of the heavenly and what Jesus was to accomplish, the temple and Sinai laws had their purposes which were fulfilled when Christ died. Jesus Christ having purified the way, and removed the veil, He alone is the High Priest over the house of God.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

If it had been possible to attain perfection through the law established Levitical priesthood--there would have been no need for Christ to come after the order of Melchisdec---having no beginning and no end, showing His divinity. And because of that change, that Christ was not of the Levitical priesthood made under the law, but from God, it required, it necessitated a change of the law.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

Christ came as the New Covenant, bringing salvation and eternal life, which was never a part of the Levitical priesthood or encompassed in the Mosaic Law.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Because of that, the abolition, putting away of the commandments contained in the Sinai covenant, because it had proven weak and unprofitable. Not because the law itself was not good, but because people are imperfect and continuously faltered in attempting to keep it, and failed, and absolutely none were ever sin free.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

disannullingG115
ἀθέτησις
athetēsis
Thayer Definition:
1) abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G114

Because the law made nothing perfect, that is, completed or perfected and without sin, the promise of that better hope in the New Covenant, authored and provided by God Himself, made it possible to be completed in Christ.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Promised by God Himself, Jesus was made the surety or bondsman or the pledge of the better testament or covenant. Priests always died and could never keep giving the required sin sacrifice. Jesus stands forever, and ever makes intercession for us. Therefore we have an unchangeable priesthood that can never die. Pure, holy , sinless and made higher than the heavens, He lives for us. The final sacrifice, once for all. Unlike the prior high priests of the Sinai covenant who had to make sin sacrifices and purify themselves, and who still were not perfect through specific rituals, before attempting to give those limited sacrifices for sin for others, Jesus died once. And because of the oath by God that Jesus would be the priest forever consecrated, which has been since the law was first established. No one can undo what God declared.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The summation of these truths:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews is believed to have been written before the destruction of the Temple, which is why it states v 13 and similar. The destruction of the temple ended the "example and shadow of the heavenly things". Which is why Moses was admonished to make things precisely as God commanded. The promised New Covenant promised by God had arrived.

The promises were made by God 430 years before the Sinai Covenant. The promises were made to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ. The law cannot disannul or overturn the promises of the new covenant.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Why did Israel serve the law. Because of transgessions/sin UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME. So the law was the schoolmaster for Israel until Christ came. That the promise by faith of Jesus Christ would justify all. No longer under the law, but walking in faith in Jesus Christ, according to God's promise of salvation and the new covenant.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

All are sanctified in the exact same way-via believing Christ [faith] and the indwelling Holy Spirit. All are to have the same doctrine of Christ and the gospel as conveyed by the apostles. All have redemption the same way. All have God's Law written on their hearts and minds--these same things should be understood in our doctrine because of Christ. That it is the fulfillment of prophecy. God's promised salvation and redemption to all who believe.

The righteousness which came by the law, via the temple worship in the Sinai covenant is symbolic with the indwelling of His Spirit since we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit.

The very example and symbolism of the law and all it contained was totally the example of what Christ did and who He is. We have no righteousness of our own or through the law. He alone is our righteousness...

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Clearly, Jesus was the final sacrifice which purified all who believe. And He took away the first sacrifices and offerings and offerings for sin via the law, and became the one and only final sacrifice which sanctifies, meaning purifies all before God.[/b] [/color]

<< Romans 1 >>
King James Version
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

[color=#FFA500]18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

---

(05-19-2011 11:54 AM)sari83 Wrote: [ -> ]I feel a little confused after reading some of the other posts on this thread. It appears as though nothing other than faith is required of us in the New Covenant. Christ gave some very specific teachings on obediance, keeping commandments, and how one enters life:

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. (KJV)

Matt 19:16-21
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (KJV)

Mark 10:29-30
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (KJV)

Luke 10:25-28
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. (KJV)

There are other NT teachings that express the significance of an individuals deeds and actions, and obediance to commandments:

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (KJV)

James 2:20-21
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (KJV)

Rom 2:5-13
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (KJV)

I Jn 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (KJV)

I Jn 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (KJV)

I Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. (KJV)

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.(KJV)

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (KJV)

My understanding is that the Father's laws have been intact since the beginning of Creation. If not, how could Adam and Eve have been guilty of sin? How would mankind have known right from wrong?

It is highly emphasized in the Scriptures how God does not desire for man to outwardly obey Him by following the letter of the law through works of the flesh, without first receiving it inwardly. (the uncircumsized of the heart)

Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (KJV)

This is why the Pharisees were so often criticized. They desired to have the appearance of righteousness, by an outward expression of actions.

Matt 3:7-8
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (KJV)

They were also guilty of placing their own traditions before the commandments of God.

Mark 7:6-9
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (KJV)

One must have the spirit to fulfill the law:

Gal 3:2-3
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(KJV)

Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (KJV)

1 Cor 9:9-12
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
(KJV)

Christ gave some very specific teachings on obediance, keeping commandments, and how one enters life:

<< Matthew 5 >>
King James Version
1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mary I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said this,

(04-19-2011 05:48 PM)Mary Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-19-2011 09:21 AM)sari83 Wrote: [ -> ]What is the new law?

Hi Sari,

It would be easy to pick out many verses and make a "list" . This may satisfy many people who like to "tick off" achievements and feel they have "done" the right thing. But the law of Christ cannot be separated from salvation - His grace: it is freedom and even the freedom to fail. It cannot be separated from His Spirit: without His Spirit we cannot live the Law of Christ.

I think people can(myself included) become hyper focused on a word,a sentence or a paragraph and lose sight of the big picture.

How many commandments do they say are in Torah,something like 613?

Quite honestly,I did not know how many there are.I googled it and actually found a site that does list every single OT and some NT commands.

So which do we "keep",the thousands that are in there or just the 10?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Who makes up the rules for God's word,what we should keep and what we don't?


I think people's hearts are in the right place by wanting to please God but they get caught up by a systematic ticking off of achievements as proof to themselves that they have done good.

That reminds me of a story.

My mother was talking to my step grandmother about sin and how we are all sinners.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


My step grandmother was completely shocked and horrified that my mom could even suggest that she was a sinner.

She proclaimed,I read the bible!
I go to church every week!
I do not lie!
I have never killed anyone!
I am not a sinner!

I am a law keeper,not a law breaker!(like those lawless christians)

Does that make you sinless? Does that make you more righteous?
Does that save you,grant you eternal life,is that your golden ticket to heaven?
"God,I kept your laws let me in,knock,knock,knock."

From all the things I have read,you guys keep the feasts and laws as some kind of charm or talisman to try to get blessings from God.
If you want to have a feast to/for God,then have a feast..there is no harm in that.

It's when someone is basically trying to manipulate God with His own words that I have a problem.


What is sin?

Sin
G264
ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
ham-ar-tan'-o
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.



People use the commandments(law) as a checklist,as proof of their goodness(sinlessness) instead of how it was intended to be used,as proof of how wicked(sinful) we are and of how much we are in need of Savior.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:



So, you want to try to keep the law,how?

Which laws?How many of them,just 1,maybe 613 of them,or how about just the 10 commandments?

Let's look at a few of the commandments..and see if we can figure out what the whole big picture is.


Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

If you love God,you won't put anything before Him.



Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

If you love your mom and dad,you will honor them.


Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

If you love someone,you are not going to kill them.



Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

If you love each other,you are not going to hurt each other by cheating on each other.


If we have love for each other we are not doing to steal from each other,covet thy neighbour's house,wife, bear false witness.


Love,love,love the law is LOVE.

It has always been about love,God's love for us,our love for Him and each other.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


I know that sounds easy,just love.It isn't that easy though.

Love is the hardest commandment there is,period.

I can go without lying.
Nope,didn't lie today,check.

I can go without stealing.
Nope,didn't steal today,check.

I can even go a day without killing someone. :P
Nope,didn't kill anyone today,CHECK!

Wow,I am doing good on my commandment(law) checklist *pats self on the back*



Mat5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Love your enemies? WHAT!
Do good to them that hate you?

Mat22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

How do we do all that?

We need Jesus!

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.



Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


I think it is a continuous process which goes on within each of us from the moment we except Christ.

There will never be a moment in our lives where we can say,Aha!I have achieved it!

We will never achieve perfect love or perfect obedience.

Jesus has set the bar high.

We have a goal to strive for.

A race to run.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.


I don't know about you but I want to hear.

Mat25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

That is my own personal goal.

(12-14-2008 03:02 PM)strefanash Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Rose of Shushan' pid='83' dateline='1229220115']
Does Jesus bring a new Torah?

I hear it said in Hebrew roots/messianic circles that the Torah of Moses /Sinai is still in force. I propose however, that being in a new covenant and proclaiming the Kingdom of God to the whole world (not just Israel), Jesus gives us a new Torah i.e. a new set of instructions.

Strefanash

I venture that NO he does not give a new set of instructions. Because in our sin we never kept the old Law the purpose of his grace is to change us so that we do keep the old law, but by this i mean the moral law, the 10 commandments. The ceremonial law is rendered irrelevant by the cross of christ, the food laws and cultural laws were to run the the society of israel and to make a point as to the holiness of God, thus they are shadows and types, all fulfilled in christ. Paul's letter to the Hebrews makes this clear.

After all the new commandment that he gave us "love one another as Ii have loved you" might have been new to them but it was merely a reiteration of the greatest commandment of the Law, to love God and your neighbour.

But to make a law of it (a commandment in a book that we must strive to obey by force against our emotions to the contrary) is to be back where you started: in the flesh, under condemnation even if only self condemnation, and estranged from christ and his abundant life

Of course the transformation into new creations is a process of his continuing action, not an immediate thing on conversion. If we overestimmate the change we have received we will try by force to make it manifest, and if we try by willpower to force obedience to the moral law we have forsaken christ to try perfection in the flesh.

What needs to be looked at it the concept of "in force" whereby a law is "in force". The ONLY result of being under the law is DEATH, as Paul made it perfectly clear and my experience of agony over 30 years of striving confirms this that the law is impossible.

God does not empower our forced efforts to obey the external forms of the law, because nature of our efforts precludes this. His grace is something else other than an energy source to empower our resolves

Though the law is in force yet that does not require our forced effort. we are removed from the jurisdiction of the Law (Paul said all this in Romans and Galatians) because the ONLY resuilt of the jurisdiction of the law is death, for Paul called it the ministry of condemnation.

the new creation is where rivers of living water flow spontaneously (that's what living waters mean) from us, ie we do what is right out of spontaneous delight and joy. If we do not we are forcing our good acts which turns them into works of law (as Paul called them) which are worthless. It is all a matter of motivation. If we force our selves what we are forcing against reveals the evil motivation, our force does not reveal our good motivation. Our forced effort is the whitened sepulchre, and the impulse we fight in us is the dead men's bones that fester. And of course the bitterness that results within us is highly dangerous, and can lead to the blasphemy of the Spirit whereby the true stil small voice of grace is rejected outright. I came close enogh to this. God in his mercy told me so and lead me to repent of the sin leading to this state before i got there.

Right neighbourly of Him, dont you think?

I must go to work now. More later

---

Yes, I do think so . Its marvelous what He has done ! I like your writting style . As we are now under new instruction , new covenant ,reviled by a new gospel which even angels wanted to look into . We recieved by Paul, Romans 6:17 " But God be thanked , that you were servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Roman 5 :18 " But if you are led of the Spirit , You are not under the Law." Again in 1 Tim. 1:9-11 " ...The Law is not made for the righteous man , but for the lawless and disobedient,....and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God , which was committed to my trust."Paul had that trust given to him ! Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes." Thats a big tenfour ! And this is the living waters , of the gospel , of the new and living way ! Titus3:5 "...by the washing of regeneration ,and renewing of the Holy Ghost ;..." This the people of Israel did not have , until Christ came . But is now for us and "who so ever will" ! Thank the Lord !