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(07-24-2009 09:45 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]We could die tonite----no rapture necessary.
No rapture necessary? Wrong!! If there is no rapture necessary, God would not have proclaimed that He was coming back to receive us unto Himself.
Try again...
(07-24-2009 10:23 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: [ -> ] (07-24-2009 09:45 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]We could die tonite----no rapture necessary.
No rapture necessary? Wrong!! If there is no rapture necessary, God would not have proclaimed that He was coming back to receive us unto Himself.
Try again...
If you die tonite---you will be with Christ. I realise that isn't as good as being raptured, according to various statements made--but I think seeing my Saviors face is enough. We receive the end of our faith....eternal salvation. Anything else is a bonus. And fully in God's hands.
But we will all be raptured. it is, I hold, the same thing as the FIRST ressurection. For it is written that the dead in christ wil rise first and we who are left alive will be snatched up to meet christ in the air.
The Greek verb to snatch or seize is harpazdo, it is the source of the latin word rapture whence the english term.
The meaning of I THess 4:17 is plain.
I expect to me dead in christ by the time this event happens. for as it will be at his coming , AFTER the great tribulation, we will likely be martyred. I also seriously entertain the possibility that it will not be in any of our lifetimes and all our jumping up and down about theend times will only discredit it and the word of God in general.
but of course we are ready for his coming if we seek his face first and foremost, to be sidetracked by the doctrine of the thing is a huge mistake, for sure the emphasis on the rapture done my endtimer fanatics is idolatrous, but denying it because of reaction to this is irrational
What if the restrainer is neither Holy Sprit nor the church?
THis is only a suggestion: what if the restrainer were the rule of law. We see growing lawlessness daily, in our so called law enforcement and in our politicians, also in popular culture. But still the truths of morality and law are given lip service to
Perhaps a time will come when all this pretence is completely abandoned and men's consciences will be so burnt out as to have nothing to stop them at all
I am not sure what the bible ment with "the restainer", but it is n t the church or the H Spirit.
The church was never able to satan in what he was/is doing.
And the H Spirit will be here during any trib, because its God who draws people by His Spirit.
Archangel Michael is n good candidate, since he fught with satan before and he will throw him out of the the heavens.
So i don t know.
EMJE
p.s
to stop satan
(07-25-2009 07:52 PM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]I am not sure what the bible ment with "the restainer", but it is n t the church or the H Spirit.
The church was never able to satan in what he was/is doing.
And the H Spirit will be here during any trib, because its God who draws people by His Spirit.
Archangel Michael is n good candidate, since he fught with satan before and he will throw him out of the the heavens.
So i don t know.
EMJE
p.s
to stop satan
Here is the verse with the word "withholdeth" bolded. This is the word that some versions use as "restrainer". From the context, it is clear that God is not allowing the end of the age until the son of perdition is revealed. How people get that is means the Holy Spirit is removed is wayyyyyyyyyyy out there 
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Jesus stated that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church - this is referring to His body of believers, not the organized religion. So satan cannot destroy or prevent the church from advancing the Gospel.
Jesus also said that satan was already cast out of Heaven. he is the prince of the power of the air and the god of this world. The world is his domain until Jesus returns.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(07-25-2009 10:03 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Emjesown' pid='3360' dateline='1248565973']
I am not sure what the bible ment with "the restainer", but it is n t the church or the H Spirit.
The church was never able to satan in what he was/is doing.
And the H Spirit will be here during any trib, because its God who draws people by His Spirit.
Archangel Michael is n good candidate, since he fught with satan before and he will throw him out of the the heavens.
So i don t know.
EMJE
p.s
to stop satan
It is absolutely not the Holy Spirit. Why? Because God said so.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And it totally contradicts the Scripture regarding the Christian walk and how we overcome.
It can't be much clearer.
To understand Romans 7 and 8 and the Christian walk without the Spirit of God, is a fantasy.
The Catholic church never talks about the indwelling Spirit, but rather talk about the Eucharist. Eating the Body, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ through a piece of bread.
They get that from John 6, but refuse to see at the end of John 6 that Jesus goes on to say that the flesh "profiteth nothing".
Joh 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
I'm still a little confused. Some say that all Christians are taken in the rapture prior to the tribulation period. This event is going to cause great chaos since drivers, pilots, doctors, patients, etc. will vanish instantly leaving vehicles, businesses, etc. unattended. Is this true? Does the Bible say that?
Others say only some Christians will be taken and others left to endure the tribulation period to reach unsaved people. Is this true? Does the Bible say that?
Some believe only Christians will hear the call to rapture. Some believe that all will hear it. It gets a little confusing to understand. Is there an order to it? Will the earth be left in such violence when Christians are raptured? I know some or all of this has been covered, but is there an easier way to read and understand the pre, post tribulation events?
(12-05-2009 12:24 PM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still a little confused. Some say that all Christians are taken in the rapture prior to the tribulation period. This event is going to cause great chaos since drivers, pilots, doctors, patients, etc. will vanish instantly leaving vehicles, businesses, etc. unattended. Is this true? Does the Bible say that?
Others say only some Christians will be taken and others left to endure the tribulation period to reach unsaved people. Is this true? Does the Bible say that?
Some believe only Christians will hear the call to rapture. Some believe that all will hear it. It gets a little confusing to understand. Is there an order to it? Will the earth be left in such violence when Christians are raptured? I know some or all of this has been covered, but is there an easier way to read and understand the pre, post tribulation events?
Jesus said that when He returns, everyone will see Him, recognize Him, and bow down before Him. The believers will rise, as will the dead in Christ when He returns to meet Him in the air and descend to earth with Him. But ALL nations, ALL peoples will acknowledge [every eye will see, every tongue confess] Him at the same moment whether they are believers or not. It is a miraculous event. [Matt 24, Phil 2, I Cor 15, 1 Thess 4 & 5]
For those who believe in a pre-trib rapture where people are zapped up to Heaven in a secret "showing" of Christ are denying the New Covenant. There is only one opportunity for people to get "saved". Once Jesus leaves His Father's right hand, time is up in this age. He returns once, not one time half way and then all the way the third time. There are no "second chances" for those "left behind" as the rapturists promote.
The hidden agenda of the rapture theory is that the Jews, as a nation, will be "saved" after the rapture. However; the Holy Spirit will not be present on the earth and so their "salvation" is a lesser one in which they will not be included with the believers who were raptured to Heaven, but will reside in a lesser Heaven and not be included in the wedding feast of the Lamb. This is the foundation of the rapture theory - although most people who believe in this concept are not aware of this deceptive teaching. If the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way", then one cannot be saved - it is only through the indwelling Holy Spirit that we are sealed to redemption in Christ.
If one states that the entire Jewish nation will be saved, they are denying the covenant that Jesus bought with His blood. There is not a special chance for the Jews. The nation of Israel is no longer a collective special group of "God's chosen". God's chosen are those who believe in Jesus Christ, Jew and gentile alike - all coming to Jesus Christ in the same exact way - through His blood [today is the day of salvation] This is the mystery of the Gospel 
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Thanks for the reply Sheep Wrecked,
So, when the raptur occurs, are the believers zapped up and taken away leaving the Earth in total chaos? I'm still a bit dim on this. So after the rapture happens, there is no other chance for anyone to come to Christ? What about when He sets His kingdom up on Earth? It's only for those who were taken with Him in the rapture? Is everyone else who is here when He comes back just doomed? I still don't get it I guess.
(12-07-2009 09:42 AM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for the reply Sheep Wrecked,
So, when the raptur occurs, are the believers zapped up and taken away leaving the Earth in total chaos? I'm still a bit dim on this. So after the rapture happens, there is no other chance for anyone to come to Christ? What about when He sets His kingdom up on Earth? It's only for those who were taken with Him in the rapture? Is everyone else who is here when He comes back just doomed? I still don't get it I guess.
Mark,
The rapture is a false doctrine. It's not going to happen that way. Jesus comes back once and all people who have ever lived and are living will see Him. Those who belong to Jesus that have died will rise first and then living believers will rise and meet Jesus in the air. Unbelievers will see this and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. This is the end of the world, the day of Judgment where satan and his dominion will be cast into hell and then unbelievers as well into everlasting torment. What is here will be burned up and destroyed. There will be a new Heaven and a new earth where Jesus/God will dwell with us here on the new earth [Heaven descends]. We don't know the exact timing of these things, although many would like think they do.
The rapture theory teaches something different - that Jesus will zap living believers into Heaven, leaving chaos behind. The remaining Jews will be saved and the 144,000 Jews that Rev speaks of will witness the Gospel and so some will be saved ....... BUT, that is only what most rapture believers think - that is NOT the true teaching. What will actually happen, according to the promoters of the rapture theory, is that the Holy Spirit will be removed when believers are raptured and those left behind "saved" will receive a "lesser salvation" and not partake in the wedding feast of the Lamb. In the mix of all that the entire Jewish nation will be saved but not be a part of Heaven with other believers but outside the gates of Heaven because they have received a "lesser salvation" as well. In other words, according to the foundation of the rapture theory there are actually 3 "locations" in Heaven - one place for those raptured, one place for those saved that were left behind, and one place for the nation of Israel. It's very, very confusing - which makes it definitely not of God.
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