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It is my understanding that a good share of Messianic believers are expecting sacrifices to again be offered in the Third Temple --- with Jesus Christ "officiating" over them. Some have stated that He will be doing the sacrifices Himself as the "High Priest"

These theories are based in Ezekiel 40-48. Does Ez really prophesy that the sacrificial system will be re-implemented? How can the sacrifices be offered under the order of Melchizedek when God set them up under the Levitical line?

How can the sacrifices be offered under the order of Melchizedek when God set them up under the Levitical line?


IT CAN T!
a new priesthood askes for a change in the law!
the change was, ending the levitical and the beginning of the melchisedeck order.
Jesus was Lam and Highpriest.He "replaced"so to speak the whole sacrificiel system including the priesthood.
No more need for it.
We see that confirmed in the fact (if this is not a fabel)
that the priests in the periode between the crucifixion and 70 AD did not see the 2 "proves"that God accepted the sacrifieces.
Until the temple was destroyed.
And they (priests) did n t get it.

He IS our highpriest in heaven, intermediar between us and God.
This Lam was sacrifieced for ever and it was the last perfect lam.
This end all sacrifieces.
So no more.
Even when the third temple is build, even when they re-start the sacrifieces....
it won t be something God wants, because Jezus has no place in all this.

EMJE

(05-19-2009 04:18 PM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]How can the sacrifices be offered under the order of Melchizedek when God set them up under the Levitical line?


IT CAN T!
a new priesthood askes for a change in the law!
the change was, ending the levitical and the beginning of the melchisedeck order.
Jesus was Lam and Highpriest.He "replaced"so to speak the whole sacrificiel system including the priesthood.
No more need for it.
We see that confirmed in the fact (if this is not a fabel)
that the priests in the periode between the crucifixion and 70 AD did not see the 2 "proves"that God accepted the sacrifieces.
Until the temple was destroyed.
And they (priests) did n t get it.

He IS our highpriest in heaven, intermediar between us and God.
This Lam was sacrifieced for ever and it was the last perfect lam.
This end all sacrifieces.
So no more.
Even when the third temple is build, even when they re-start the sacrifieces....
it won t be something God wants, because Jezus has no place in all this.

EMJE

That reminds me of this Scripture, which I absolutely love!:

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there rises another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifies, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is truly a cancellation of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said to him, The Lord swore and will not repent, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continues ever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Why he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law makes men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, makes the Son, who is consecrated for ever more.

I understand that the reinstitution of the sacrifices is not a progress in God's work on mankind overall , whereby such a thing would be heretical, but is a strategy in dealing specifically with the people of Israel as part of his plan to bring them to national repentence (they will look on Me whom they have pierced and mourn, it is written) probably at the time of the second coming.

I have no love for Zionism, and I regard as idolatrous any idea that love for Israel means endorsement of its crimes (the Gaza massacre of last year springs to mind). But i reject outright any idea claiming that Israel has been perpetually cast off. Moreover I take it as part of his plan to save as many Jews who will that he would return them to the Land in unbelief as has happened (so Ezekiel 36 seems to imply) then reinstitute the sacrifice, which is yet to occur, thus restoring the manifest ritualist workings of the old covenant not for the benfit of us, but for the Jews, so that when back under the full force of the old covenant they may be shown the New and have the opportuinity to choose it

Some have argued that the prince who wil stop the sacrifice as mentioned in Daniel is Christ, who did indeed stop the sacrifice, but the context is that the prince is of the people who are to come, namely the Romans and therefore the anti christ.

And if the sacrifice is to be stopped by this man it had to be re started for he has not come yet.

ONE THING

if criticizing the state of israel for its defiant breaching of the Law of God which commands mercy to the alien within the Land is anti semitism then

1/ the prophets were anti semites

2 i am DEFINTELY on the wrong site

(06-03-2009 05:18 AM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]I understand that the reinstitution of the sacrifices is not a progress in God's work on mankind overall , whereby such a thing would be heretical, but is a strategy in dealing specifically with the people of Israel as part of his plan to bring them to national repentence (they will look on Me whom they have pierced and mourn, it is written) probably at the time of the second coming.

I have no love for Zionism, and I regard as idolatrous any idea that love for Israel means endorsement of its crimes (the Gaza massacre of last year springs to mind). But i reject outright any idea claiming that Israel has been perpetually cast off. Moreover I take it as part of his plan to save as many Jews who will that he would return them to the Land in unbelief as has happened (so Ezekiel 36 seems to imply) then reinstitute the sacrifice, which is yet to occur, thus restoring the manifest ritualist workings of the old covenant not for the benfit of us, but for the Jews, so that when back under the full force of the old covenant they may be shown the New and have the opportuinity to choose it

Some have argued that the prince who wil stop the sacrifice as mentioned in Daniel is Christ, who did indeed stop the sacrifice, but the context is that the prince is of the people who are to come, namely the Romans and therefore the anti christ.

And if the sacrifice is to be stopped by this man it had to be re started for he has not come yet.

ONE THING

if criticizing the state of israel for its defiant breaching of the Law of God which commands mercy to the alien within the Land is anti semitism then

1/ the prophets were anti semites

2 i am DEFINTELY on the wrong site

The problem with "national repentance" is two fold.

One - the NT never prophesies this, because the old covenant is gone. There is no more "national Israel". Jesus broke down the middle partition between Jew and Gentile - now all come to God through Jesus Christ. There is one new man and only one way to the Father - through Jesus and each person must choose.

Two - The Jews have already witnessed "Him who they have pierced" when Jesus was on the cross. There may be a second time, when Christ returns and all the nations of the world see Him in all His glory - then every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord of lords.

I believe that we need to look at Ezekiel's Temple as a vision. If one looks at the NT, we can clearly see how it was fulfilled. It is not a literal Temple or sacrificial system [the sacrificial system of Ezekiel does not match the Mosaic Law and therefore it is not "legal" anyway].

There is no need for this to be reintroduced in order for the Jews to understand Christ's sacrifice and be shown the new covenant. The New Covenant IS Jesus Christ. When the Holy Spirit opens one's eyes that He is the Savior, one does not need to understand animal sacrifices in order to comprehend that Jesus died for one's sins.

Most believers have never really studied the sacrificial system, but fully know the price that Jesus paid for their sins. Hebrews does an excellent job of showing us the process and the fulfillment. To say that Jews have to go back to that system is probably a misunderstanding of NT Scriptures.

(06-03-2009 05:18 AM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]I understand that the reinstitution of the sacrifices is not a progress in God's work on mankind overall , whereby such a thing would be heretical, but is a strategy in dealing specifically with the people of Israel as part of his plan to bring them to national repentence (they will look on Me whom they have pierced and mourn, it is written) probably at the time of the second coming.

The Third Temple (which is the Tribulation Temple) will not be built according to God's design. The purpose of the Tribulation is to bring unbelieving Israel to national repentance.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)

Quote:I have no love for Zionism, and I regard as idolatrous any idea that love for Israel means endorsement of its crimes (the Gaza massacre of last year springs to mind). But i reject outright any idea claiming that Israel has been perpetually cast off. Moreover I take it as part of his plan to save as many Jews who will that he would return them to the Land in unbelief as has happened (so Ezekiel 36 seems to imply) then reinstitute the sacrifice, which is yet to occur, thus restoring the manifest ritualist workings of the old covenant not for the benfit of us, but for the Jews, so that when back under the full force of the old covenant they may be shown the New and have the opportuinity to choose it

I don't believe Zionism is an endorsement for wrong doing. We are to "pray for the peace of Jerusalem".

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. (Psalms 122:6)

As far as the Gaza massacre is concerned, Israel was (and always is) defending herself against the enemy...in this case, the Hamas, which is an Islamic, anti-Israel/Jew terrorist organization responsible for multiple suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks against Israel.

I agree that Scriptures teach that Israel has not been "perpetually cast off":

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Romans 11:1-5)

Quote:Some have argued that the prince who wil stop the sacrifice as mentioned in Daniel is Christ, who did indeed stop the sacrifice, but the context is that the prince is of the people who are to come, namely the Romans and therefore the anti christ.

And if the sacrifice is to be stopped by this man it had to be re started for he has not come yet.

ONE THING

if criticizing the state of israel for its defiant breaching of the Law of God which commands mercy to the alien within the Land is anti semitism then

1/ the prophets were anti semites

2 i am DEFINTELY on the wrong site

According to Daniel 9:24-27, "the people of the prince that shall come" are the Romans and the "prince" is the Antichrist. I agree that Antichrist has not come yet....this will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation period...which is the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:24-27)

Israel is back in their land in unbelief....during this time God is calling out a people (the body of Christ/the Church) composed of Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:14-16). God has temporarily set unbelieving Israel aside (Romans 11).

The New Covenant is an everlasting covenant. There is no scripture to suggest that it gets deleted, overturned or stopped for any reason or anybody. None.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

everlasting G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Many seem to forget that when Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies concerning Messiah and the New Covenant, that many thousands of Jews have come to Him , as well as Gentiles. And they have continued to come to Him for 2000 years. They, both Jew and Gentile make up the Body of Christ.

The sacrificial system was destroyed, not just by the destruction of the Temple, but when Jesus died. Those Messianics or HR who have been doing sacrifices and/or desire to eventually do them at a reinstituted temple or in the future are overturning the finished work of Christ.

Hebrews 10:1-18 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10. [b]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, [/b]sat down on the right hand of God; 13. From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

once for all G2178
ἐφάπαξ
ephapax
Thayer Definition:
1) once, at once
1a) all at once
1b) once for all

There is not another covenant to come with, or for, anybody. Jesus said on the cross, It is finished. The New Covenant was fully in force and there is no promise of another way to the Father, either in the OT or the NT. Nor is there any need for any other way. The Scriptures clearly say that the old sacrificial system was taken out of the way to make way for the New Covenant and the way to the Father, that is Christ. It isn't up for debate. V18--there is no more offering for sin.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Those who enter into the sacrifices do so because of unblief of Christ, what He did and the New Covenant being fulfilled.

The sacrifices most important to those who will do these things are for sin....to purify before God by the Mosaic covenant because of no belief in the New Covenant and that Jesus is the only way to have forgiveness of sins. The final sacrifice. Once for all...not over and over again, or with animal sacrifices just to top it off for those Messianics and HR who believe they want to do this.

They forfeit the truth of Jesus Christ and the cross when they do this. Final sacrifice does not mean more sacrifices are needed oe desired by God. Scriptures says that isn't what He desires.

Either Jesus died for ALL mankind and fulfilled the promise of the New Covenant for Jew and Gentile, or we have based our beliefs on a lie. And I for one am not of a mind to believe that for a second.

Vic, did I for one moment suggest anything to the contrary?

If you really think I did then once more you simply do not get what I am on about

(06-04-2009 06:38 AM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]Vic, did I for one moment suggest anything to the contrary?

If you really think I did then once more you simply do not get what I am on about

I think the problem is that when one states that national Israel has to come to some kind of special repentance as a nation, this contorts the New Covenant, even nullifies it - that is the issue.

Plus, there is the teaching that the Jews will not have the indwelt Holy Spirit after the "rapture". The point being that the New Covenant is eternal and the only way for people of *all* ethnic groups, individually to come to Christ and be in Christ is the indwelt Holy Spirit - this is part of the NC as prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31,32].

National Israel no longer has a "special" covenant - the Bible does not state this. The old covenant is no more. God said He was replacing that covenant [not replacing the Jews]. There is only ONE Covenant that remains - belief in Jesus Christ's shed blood for forgiveness of sins, the indwelt Holy Spirit [believers are sealed] and eternal life.

As Paul stated, God did not do away with the Jews - they are part of the NC promise that they too can come to Christ, just like everyone else. There is no specific provision in the NC for a "group" or a nation. All are on "equal footing" through Christ - that is the awesome, incredible mystery of the Gospel.

(06-04-2009 06:38 AM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]Vic, did I for one moment suggest anything to the contrary?

If you really think I did then once more you simply do not get what I am on about

Stref--I wasn't answering you. I was making a comment on the whole issue for the thread. Not to worry, If, I answer someone specifically, I generally quote them.