SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

(10-28-2010 08:52 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: [ -> ]I'm glad that you understand what I'm saying now but now it's me that is maybe not understanding you.
The reason why is that what you say you pointed is already a given for us, or at least for me and from what I have gathered over the years,other christians too.When you say that why wouldn't we assume the same mercy remains in effect for Israel I don't understand what you mean.The salvation promised by the Prophets is fulfilled in Jesus.And Jesus is for both jew and gentile.

Thank you for the further explanation. Over the last month I've been studying anti-semitism and its origins. Being a Christian my whole life, I had never known this dark history. Combine this new knowledge with my love for the Hebrew bible, Jewish relatives and friends, and the study of Judaism, this has created in me a deep sympathy for the Hebrew people.

If I might interpret what you are saying Sarah, Christians are anti-semitic?

Just because a person claims to be a christian does not mean they are and does not mean they speak for everyone. So why should the term be applied across the board? All it does it make it appear as if anyone who follows Christ hates the Jews, which is historically and currently rubbish. Total and complete rubbish. It's used as a smoke screen to hide other issues. For instance you bringing it into this thread and another thread. Has nothing to do with the thread, but you bring it in--and imply Christians are antisemitic, meaning those here on this forum are antisemitic. Of course you realise if you claim to be a Christian---that makes you antisemitic simply by your application.

Since the thread is about 'replacement theology', I am not quite sure what your statement has to do with the topic. But lets explore it. So in the Scriptures where it says, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God---that only applies to Gentiles?

And in the Scriptures where Peter said:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
...Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Was Peter >>who was a Jew<< when he explained the actions of Christ being crucified, as being fulfillment of prophecy---was he being antisemitic?

When Paul aka Saul >>who was a Jew<< who persecuted the first believers and killed or tortured many---many of whom were fellow Jews--was he being antisemitic to Jewish believers? These are the first believers aren't they? Were those believers and all believers mentioned in the NT antisemitic?

Believers in Jesus Christ are first and foremost to have love for the brethren and after that would follow love of others who do not know Jesus Christ. Regardless of their background.

Love for the Hebrew Bible? which Bible would that be? The JPS from 1917 which does not include the NT? Would you be including the Talmud and Zohar/kabbalah etc as they are part of Judaisms sacred writings and are placed above the OT?
So you are studying Judaism, and since on here you have nothing but doubts about the validity of the NT, and the OT, you doubt the virgin birth, you doubt specific Scriptures, you doubt the authenticity of the scriptures, believe they are corrupted, etc. You are studying a belief system that rejects Jesus Christ and assimilating their beliefs about Christ and the NT instead of sharing Christ and proving the NT to them and the fulfillment of prophecy from the OT.

Sounds a bit skewed to me from a Christian standpoint.

Which "Hebrew Bible"? One of the perverse Hebrew Roots 'versions or so called translations? You need to do some serious rethinking if they are your sources.

We have Jewish friends and some here are Jewish or have Jewish relatives. We have a love for Jewish people and all people, because of Christ and we are to love others. Not because of race or geneology, but because they are people. If you prefer someone because of their geneology or race...here's what is said about that.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

When God chose Israel, it was because He chose them out of all of mankind to be witnesses of Himself. They were given a great honor and some would say burden to stand and show they were different. They were given the record of the beginning of creation to the telling of their obedience and disobedience to God. They had the prophets who proclaimed God and all the prophecies about themselves in God's plan, about all mankind in God's plan and about the fulfillment of those prophecies which culminated in God's plan of salvation first spoken of to Abraham. That salvation was for Jews and Gentiles---all mankind. Because of God's love and mercy. It's for everyone and was taken to the house of Israel first by Christ Himself and He also told Gentiles of these truths when He walked the earth. There has been no replacement of Israel. It still exists. Peter said--Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It was the fulfillment of prophecy and the New Covenant God promised He would provide in the OT. There is no longer any barrier from God for those who believe who Jesus Christ is and what He did. Jewish believers were the witnesses to Christ, the disciples were Jewish believers. This has nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism. It has everything to do with knowing Christ and believing and understanding the Word of God and prophecy.

Ephesians 2:8-22 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12.That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him **we both** have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Romans 10:8-13 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You've either seriously mistaken my posts, or I've failed to relay my words properly. Either way, Israel is still Israel. Gentiles are grafted into the olive branch. Replacement theology is false. You obviously have some deep seeded issues with these hebrew/messianic people. You might want to get that resolved.

Quote:Thank you for the further explanation. Over the last month I've been studying anti-semitism and its origins. Being a Christian my whole life, I had never known this dark history. Combine this new knowledge with my love for the Hebrew bible, Jewish relatives and friends, and the study of Judaism, this has created in me a deep sympathy for the Hebrew people.

I hope that what you have been reading is historically accurate.I have come across such a wide variety of stuff out there..especially in hebrew roots circles that seeks to foster guilt among christians and pin on them the responsibility of what has been done by people who weren't even christians in the first place.
Many times I hear christians apologising to jews to what has been done to them in the past by christianity yet why should we feel guilty for something we did not do.
The same goes for when people accuse the jewish people today for what has been done to christians by jews in the times of Christ and beyond.
Just like God doesn't hold us responsible for the sins committed by others and over which we had no control,I believe we shouldn't hold others responsible for what they themselves had no hand in doing.
You say you had no kknowledge of the supposed dark history and that to me shows that you as a christian harboured no anti semitisim and hadnt encountered such attitudes in your christian friends either.That is good news wouldnt you say?
I'm glad you have developed a deep sympathy for the jewish people,however wouldnt you agree that as christians we should have a deep sympathy with all peoples?There are so many who have suffered on account of their race or ethnicity and this isn't restricted to jews.
I live in a multi cultural society where we have arabs,jews,hindus in quite large proportions and have found them all to suffer from discrimination from the other groups.Racism and the feelings of superiority arise in all groups.

(10-30-2010 12:44 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-30-2010 12:02 AM)sari83 Wrote: [ -> ]You've either seriously mistaken my posts, or I've failed to relay my words properly. Either way, Israel is still Israel. Gentiles are grafted into the olive branch. Replacement theology is false. You obviously have some deep seeded issues with these hebrew/messianic people. You might want to get that resolved.

You are correct, replacement theology is false, but the Messianic movement actually teaches it by denying the New Covenant in Christ. They deny that the New Covenant has changed who God's "holy nation" is and therefore throw the Jews under the bus > they deny that Jesus saves the Jews through His blood and the New Covenant, and instead are saved by their nationality and through the old covenant [no longer in effect] at some future point. This is the most severe form of "replacement theology".

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

It is not a matter of "issues" with Messianics, it is a matter of Truth, and we are here to refute the errors of that movement.

And who is the olive branch? Your answer will indicate which side of the fence you are on.

(10-30-2010 01:48 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]And who is the olive branch? Your answer will indicate which side of the fence you are on.[/b][/color]

The immediate thought that comes to my mind is that Christ is the root of the olive branch. Paul seems to be saying that believers are the branches.

Rom 11:17-21 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
(KJV)