SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

With Pentecost fast approaching, I thought it would be interesting to discuss it.

I have heard that many both in Christianity and Messianicism teach that Pentecost is the celebration of the giving of Torah or the Law of Moses.

What do you think?

Welll eh there is a paralel eh?
the fire, smoke wind noise.......
so if the law was given a s a teacher
the Holy Soirit was given as a "" teacher"
more paralel's

And yes i did hear that the teach that
i believed it cause it made sence

So what is your idea on it?

EMJE

(05-24-2009 08:55 PM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]Welll eh there is a paralel eh?
the fire, smoke wind noise.......
so if the law was given a s a teacher
the Holy Soirit was given as a "" teacher"
more paralel's

And yes i did hear that the teach that
i believed it cause it made sence

So what is your idea on it?

EMJE

I like to stick with Scripture - so I guess my challenge would be - where is that concept in the Bible - that Pentecost was the giving of Torah?




My second question: What does Acts 1 and 2 say about what Pentecost means?

And third - can we find any comparisons with Pentecost as it was given in the Law with what Christ accomplished? In other words, how did He fulfill it?

From Way of Life Encyclopedia:

Way of Life Encyclopedia
PENTECOST

The Jewish feast of harvest celebrated 50 days after the Passover (Le 23:15-21).

Leviticus 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.

19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.

20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Pentecost means fifty. It is also called feast of weeks (Ex 34:22),

Exodus 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

feast of harvest (Ex 23:16),

Exodus 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

and day of first fruits (Nu 28:26).

Numbers 28:26 Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work:

This feast was a picture of the coming of the Holy Spirit 50 days after Christ's death (Ac 2:1-4).

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

On that day God reaped the firstfruits of His great worldwide harvest (Romans 8:23; Jamess 1:18).

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The Lord Jesus Christ prophesied that the Holy Spirit would come to empower the churches for world evangelization (Acts 1:8)

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

From Wikipedia: Pentecost

Historically and symbolically related to the Jewish harvest festival of Shavuot or the day, fifty days after the Exodus, on which God gave the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, Pentecost now also commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and other followers of Jesus as described in the Book of Acts, Chapter 2 in the New Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost

I've never heard that Pentecost/Shavu'ot had anything to do with the giving of Torah.

IMO the Holy Spirit took the place of the law in doing the convicting under the new covenant while under the old covenant people were constantly being confronted of their sins and their failures - it was such a burden to them.



Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

(05-24-2009 11:19 PM)LindaR Wrote: [ -> ]From Way of Life Encyclopedia:


Historically and symbolically related to the Jewish harvest festival of Shavuot or the day, fifty days after the Exodus, on which God gave the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, Pentecost now also commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and other followers of Jesus as described in the Book of Acts, Chapter 2 in the New Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost

I've never heard that Pentecost/Shavu'ot had anything to do with the giving of Torah.

Scripture never says anything about it, so someone added it somewhere. I suspect it comes from the Talmud because it's a huge deal in Judaism. There is no evidence in Pentetuch that Shavu'ot was the giving of the Torah. Shavu'ot required a sin sacrifice and its main theme was the giving of one's first fruits.

Wiki is a catholic publication, so you can see that the concept has crossed over into protestantism/christianity.

This is what I found at Judaism 101:

Quote: “Shavu’ot, the Festival of Weeks, is the second of the three major festivals with both historical and agricultural significance (the other two are Passover and Sukkot). Agriculturally, it commemorates the time when the first fruits were harvested and brought to the Temple, and is known as Hag ha-Bikkurim (the Festival of the First Fruits). Historically, it celebrates the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, and is also known as Hag Matan Torateinu (the Festival of the Giving of Our Torah).

The period from Passover to Shavu’ot is a time of great anticipation. We count each of the days from the second day of Passover to the day before Shavu’ot, 49 days or 7 full weeks, hence the name of the festival. See The Counting of the Omer. The counting reminds us of the important connection between Passover and Shavu’ot: Passover freed us physically from bondage, but the giving of the Torah on Shavu’ot redeemed us spiritually from our bondage to idolatry and immorality. Shavu’ot is also known as Pentecost, because it falls on the 50th day; however, Shavu’ot has no particular similarity to the Christian holiday of Pentecost, which occurs 50 days after their Spring holiday.

It is noteworthy that the holiday is called the time of the giving of the Torah, rather than the time of the receiving of the Torah. The sages point out that we are constantly in the process of receiving the Torah, that we receive it every day, but it was first given at this time. Thus it is the giving, not the receiving, that makes this holiday significant.”

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayc.htm

I was reading Leviticus and ran across these two verses which seem quite odd to me. I keep reading the whole passage concerning the feast of weeks in particular and I think I am having a mental block

Lev 23:15 And you shall count to you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even to the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall you number fifty days; and you shall offer a new meat offering to the LORD.

Doesn't it say there are 7 Sabbaths and THEN the 50 day count? Not 50 days from the last Sabbath of Unleavened Bread, but 7 Sabbaths from then and then 50 more days? It seems that the 7 Sabbaths are "normal" ones, not counting the 2 in Unleavened Bread [1st and last day - 7 days long].

I am finding lots of info on the net about Shavu'ot, including some connected to kabbalah. Here is one - I bolded in red some of the text as concepts that are contradictory to Scripture and show the mystical/kabbalistic view.

Quote:Indeed, Shavuot commemorates the face-to-face encounter between God and the Jewish people. Our tradition tells us that we all stood at Sinai, every Jewish soul, even those not yet born. The making of the covenant and the giving of the Torah serves as a shared experience among all Jews, past and present. We each entered into that covenant, that relationship, with God, and we accepted that Torah, that teaching. We connected ourselves with God and God’s wisdom for eternity.

Within the Ten Commandments, there are actually two sets of laws. One reflects man’s relationship with God, mitzvot beyn adam l’makom, and one set that reflects man’s relationship toward his fellow man, mitzvot beyn adam l’chaveyro. The revelation at Mt. Sinai continued beyond the tenth commandment, including an additional 603 ethical and religious laws to bring the total to 613 commandments. Of those 613 commandments, 248 are positive commandments, said to correspond to the number of bones in the body [there are only 206 bones in the human body according to Gray's Anatomy used by all medical students], and 365 are negative commandments, said to correspond to the days of the year [Biblical years were 360 days - 12 months with 30 days each based on the moon's cycles] . When viewed together, they suggest that we Jews devote every part of our bodies, every day of our lives, to following God’s Torah as revealed to all of us, born and unborn, that day at Mount Sinai.

I see this as an indication that we are imbued with Torah. Each and every one of us carries the Torah and its commandments within us. For what is Torah but wisdom and lessons and inspiration? Indeed, we are told that Moses brought down from that mountain not only the commandments but the oral Torah and the mystical tradition we know as Kabbalah.

All of this we commemorate on Shavuot. Every day, however, we have a chance to offer this Torah ourselves not only through our actions - by performing mitzvot- but also by actually offering our wisdom to others. We can inspire each other with our actions, our words, our experiences. That’s how we can continue the tradition of giving Torah every day. Maybe that’s part of our covenant with God, to actually take the Torah and make it alive, make it our own, transform it into something personal, and then share it. We need to pass it on l’dor v’dor, from generation to generation, making it constantly new and relevant.

Most Jews celebrate Shavuot with all-night study sessions. This tradition comes from the fact that the Israelites at Mount Sinai were so consumed with their fear-rather than their awe-of God that they could not listen to the revelation being given to them. (Exodus 20:15-18).

On this night before the full day of Shavuot, Jews study late into the night, sometimes till dawn, in the hope that once again God might choose Shavuot to reveal to Israel the hidden mystical truths underlying creation.

Here’s what I suggest, however. Let’s not wait for God to reveal these truths. Instead, let’s search within ourselves, we who are created in God’s image and who were there at the mountain that day. We may not have listened but we heard. Plus, we have a spark of divinity within us, a neshamah, a soul, connected to God. We have our own mystical truths to share, our own Torah to give that will inspire and enlighten others.

Yes, this Shavuot, let’s not wait to see if God reveals truths and lessons to us. Let’s channel the Divine Energy ourselves by offering our own Torah to our friends, families, and communities. Ask for Divine Wisdom [hokman - kabbalistic term - the manifestation of EnSof, the greater Divine Being]. Meditate and pray and connect with God. Draw on old stories and apply them to your own life and experiences, thus renewing them and making them relevant once again. Or simply tell new stories of your own.

Everyone has a Torah. What’s yours? Give it this Shavuot.

http://purespiritcreations.com/wordpress...our-torah/