SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Mark 8:17-18 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18. Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Luke 12:1-3 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. 3. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

1 Corinthians 5:4-7 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Galatians 5:5-9 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8. This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Let's talk leaven...

There are many who would say that it is clear...a little leaven leaven's the lump---it permeates throughout. Meaning... a little error can permeate and change one's thinking and understanding. If one accepts the beliefs and doctrine of someone who is proven in error and contrary to Scripture, it stands to reason one needs to eliminate all they assimilated from them and then make sure that each thing they believe is actually Scripturally true.

Some are actually deciding a particular person --where they obtained major doctrine---is found to be false---yet they merely switch to another who has the same doctrines, without some particular noticed error. In other words, they have become permeated with the false doctrine and do not see that they are in error. They place the issue on the person's apparent and noticable hypocrisy's and falseness, instead of also on what they have promoted and they themselves have accepted as truth.

If a little leaven leaven's the whole lump...can a person hang onto the doctrine they have received from the false teacher? group? organisation? belief system?

what was the leaven of the pharisees?

It was hypocrisy. You yourself quoted this passage. It was not error per se, and why? as Jesus said "DO AS THEY SAY but not as they do."

If leaven is as you define it ie only propositional error I am to reject every teaching that I ever heard from every sinner, which is every teaching I ever heard, including yours, Vic, and my own.

For example, tongue speeking. The reactions I have heard against it here are emotive and unbiblical, indeed the reactions are so bad that I have given up responding to them.

That is the sober truth as to why I have been somewhat quiet lately

(06-27-2009 12:06 PM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]what was the leaven of the pharisees?

It was hypocrisy. You yourself quoted this passage. It was not error per se, and why? as Jesus said "DO AS THEY SAY but not as they do."

If leaven is as you define it ie only propositional error I am to reject every teaching that I ever heard from every sinner, which is every teaching I ever heard, including yours, Vic, and my own.

For example, tongue speeking. The reactions I have heard against it here are emotive and unbiblical, indeed the reactions are so bad that I have given up responding to them.

That is the sober truth as to why I have been somewhat quiet lately

Hi Stref,

Yes, the leaven of the pharisees was hypocrisy in living and doctrine---and Galatians says it also has to do with being persuaded to follow error--which has to do with belief aka doctrine.

7. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8. This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

The leaven of error in doctrine permeates the whole of our beliefs also Stref. It can skew our understanding from one area to the next.

You think, because you think tongues is right, that those who speak against it have to be emotional and unbiblical. But...I can refute with the Scriptures on the issue..not by emotion but by understanding. To you that means emotion and unbiblical. Because you don't agree.

People believe what they want Stref. It can be emotional based or Scripturally based. It can be with circular thinking or on sound Biblical doctrine. Each believes what they believe. Only God can give the understanding.

This is just a quick rundown on what the leaven of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Herod/Herodians means.

Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 16:1-4 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4. A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

doctrine > G1322 διδαχή didachē
Thayer Definition:
1) teaching
1a) that which is taught
1b) doctrine, teaching, concerning something
2) the act of teaching, instruction
2a) in religious assemblies of the Christians, to speak in the way of teaching, in distinction from other modes of speaking in public
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1321

leaven > G2219 ζύμη zumē
Thayer Definition:
1) leaven
2) metaphorically of inveterate mental and moral corruption, viewed in its tendency to infect others
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from G2204

Luke 12:1-3 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. 3. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

Leaven of the Pharisees > Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

They tended to live a separate and distinct life. Zealous to the point of deifying the law, while rejecting Christ. Their religion became external, legalistic and formal, and missed the heart of knowing and loving God, desiring truth, righteousness, and the spirit of the law, and instead gave the outward appearance of religion but inwardly were "whited sepulchres."while they placed terrible burdens on their followers, while not doing those things themselves. (Mark 7:6-13; Luke 11:42-44, 53-54; 16:14-15) What they believed was fully contrary to what Christ taught and how He lived, which is why they were such bitter enemies of Him..

Believed the written law, but also the oral law, which for many was and is esteemed above the written. They were popular, and had extensive religious and political influence. They were filled with self righteousness, pride and covetousness, desiring the adoration of others and special privileges because of who they thought they were. They appeared moral, but failed miserably as many scriptures reveal in Jesus' rebuke and interactions with them. They imputed Christ's miracles to satan, and denied who He was.

Thankfully, as with the other groups some did come to believe Christ and serve Him.

Leaven of the Sadducees > Basically, the Sadducees denied the resurrection of the body, and they did not believe in angels, spirits, future punishment or rewards. Many were among the "elders" of the Sanhedrin, judges and the upper class. They hated Jesus and participated in condemning Him and later attempted to keep the apostles from speaking publicly about Christ. . (Matt 16:21; 26:1-3, 59; Mark 8:31; 15:1; Luke 9:22; 22:66; Acts 2:24, 31-32; 4:1-2; 5:17, 24-28)

They went to John the Baptist on the banks of the Jordan:

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

They tried to tempt Jesus.. He called them “hypocrites” and “a wicked and adulterous generation” (Matthew 16:1-4; Matthew 22:23). In Mark 12:18-27 and Luke 20:27-38, they attempted to ridicule the doctrine of the resurrection, which they denied. See also Acts 23:6-9

They denied the oral law and instead held strictly to the written law, which put them at odds with the Pharisees. Jesus told them they didn't know or understand the Scriptures, as he also did in Matthew 16:1-4.

Matthew 22:23-34 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24. Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. ... 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. 34. But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

Leaven of Herod or Herodians > Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Mar 12:13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

Matthew 22:15-16 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. 16. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

Herod was descended from a family of Edomites - his mother was a Samaritan. Appointed by Rome, he was not a Jew but became ruler or king over the Jews, and made religion part of the state. It is reported that many Jews did not accept Herod as the legitimate king, because he was not from the lineage of David, and was appointed by Rome.

Herod the Great was the son of Antipater of Idumaea (Edom). Appointed king of Judaea B.C. 40. He is the one who commanded that all Jewish male children be killed after the birth of Christ. Since he was a descendant of Esau, and not of Jacob, then obviously he would not be defined as a “brother” by the standard of Torah.

Herod "Antipas", was the son of Herod the Great (Edomite) and Malthace (Samaritan) He cast John the Baptist into prison due to John's rebuke for his unlawful relationship with Herodias, his brothers wife. At her request, he ordered him beheaded. Probably not a “brother”.

Herod Agrippa I was the grandson of Herod the Great. I wonder if the scripture about the sins of the father and generations would apply here? His patri-lineal line was also from Edom. He also ordered that James son of Zebedee put to death, and for Peter to be cast into prison. Herod was worshiped as a god, stuck down and eaten by worms, and died. God's justice.

The Herodians were a court or political party mentioned in Matthew 22:16; Mark 12:13; Mark 3:6, as acting with the Pharisees in opposition to Jesus. They were not a religious sect, but supporters of the dynasty of Herod. They saw that what Christ taught was antagonistic and contrary to their interests, which is why they joined with the Pharisees to attempt to destroy Christ.

The Herodians were an attempted buffer between the Jews and paganism and their faith. They looked upon Herod and his successors as Messiah, meaning they were forerunner's of the antichrist and literally paved the way to apostasy by blending paganism and false gods with God and the law. They believed that it was a political necessity to support Herod or whatever the govt (Rome) regardless how unfaithful to God the government was. Not the necessary regard of all government, but the adulation and support for compromise of the Truth. They also esteemed Caesar as ruler to them...which God had forbidden Deu 17:15

They merged their Jewish beliefs with their compromising and unorthodox political and spiritual practices which gave them the common ground with both the Pharisees and Sadducees. They joined forces to find a way to destroy Christ. That is, the legal zealots, the Jewish politicians, supporters of the political and ruling dynasty, worked together to deal with Christ whose teachings contradicted their legalism and the temporary kingdoms of this world, in favor of His Spiritual kingdom, which lasts for all eternity.

Luk 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them 20 And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.

In a nutshell, the leaven of hypocrisy was the pretense of teaching sound doctrine, while actually adding to and taking away from the Word of God. The warning against the doctrine of the Pharisess can be summed up for us as being all the things and doctrines we are warned about by Christ and with the later writings of the apostles, which things go against the Scriptures and Christ. Sound doctrine can be proven to the Word. We don't need to make up doctrine, or make a belief and then twist the Word to fit it. True doctrine is found in the Word of God.

This is a physical demonstration of how a little leaven leavens the whole lump:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourdough

I baked sourdough bread when I lived in San Francisco because the local fungal and bacterial flora produce the best bread. All it takes is a starter (leaven) one quarter size of the lump of dough to inflate the dough to Hindenburg proportions.

(06-27-2009 10:56 AM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]If a little leaven leaven's the whole lump...can a person hang onto the doctrine they have received from the false teacher? group? organisation? belief system?[/b][/color]

The Leaven was the DOCTRINE not the teachers.

And one false doctrine will corrupt other doctrine.

We need to filter our doctrine through Scripture.

Throw out the bad but remember even a broken clock is right sometimes.

Even Satan mixes truth and Error. He comes as an Angel of light.

Do not throw out Truth WITH the Error.

No in there right mind one would eat rotten fruit. We cut off the bad spots if we can. We try to save that which is still good.

We prune a Tree, we don't hack down one which is redeemable.

Luke 13:6-9 * He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. * Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? * And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: * And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

It is what God did.
Romans 11:20-21 * Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: * For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Read the passage to see the context. He did not remove the whole tree and start over.

I Thank God.

(01-29-2010 12:20 PM)Scotchman Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-27-2009 10:56 AM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]If a little leaven leaven's the whole lump...can a person hang onto the doctrine they have received from the false teacher? group? organisation? belief system?[/b][/color]

The Leaven was the DOCTRINE not the teachers.

And one false doctrine will corrupt other doctrine.

We need to filter our doctrine through Scripture.

Throw out the bad but remember even a broken clock is right sometimes.

Even Satan mixes truth and Error. He comes as an Angel of light.

Do not throw out Truth WITH the Error.

No in there right mind one would eat rotten fruit. We cut off the bad spots if we can. We try to save that which is still good.

We prune a Tree, we don't hack down one which is redeemable.

Luke 13:6-9 * He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. * Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? * And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: * And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

It is what God did.
Romans 11:20-21 * Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: * For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Read the passage to see the context. He did not remove the whole tree and start over.

I Thank God.

Jesus said that NO good fruit could come from and evil tree [Matt 7]. This allegory has nothing to do with the tree in Romans 11. It is a different concept. Jesus was speaking of the fruit that one brings forth. If one is a false teacher, then ALL the fruit is evil.

You said it yourself - satan mixes thing up to make them look like truth. Does God? Would God?

A broken clock may be right twice a day, but its still busted. How are you going to tell when it's "right" if it's not running???

Please show me where God says that we are to cut off the rotten parts of the fruit and keep the rest.

When the truth is combined with error, it is contaminated and no longer useful - it is as rotten as the error.

Reread it then, you missed the point. LEAVEN AFFECTS YOUR FRUIT and THAT IS something which the Luke and Romans passages deal with.

(01-29-2010 10:57 PM)Scotchman Wrote: [ -> ]Reread it then, you missed the point. LEAVEN AFFECTS YOUR FRUIT and THAT IS something which the Luke and Romans passages deal with.

Sorry, I am still not understanding. Fruit is your actions and your mindset - what's in your heart, too. Leaven is false doctrine.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.