SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

I am a non-Messianic Orthodox Jew who has taken
an interest in why gentiles are so attracted to the
Messianic movement.

I am not interested in becoming Messianic, nor am
I interested in doing "counter-missionary" work to
draw people away from it.

I'm simply here to learn more and satisfy my curiosity
of it's growth amongst gentiles.

I am a medical professional, married to a wonderful man
for many many years, an avid reader and an avid traveler
(seems like I always end up going to Israel so I haven't
seen a lot of the rest of the world).

I'm also a forum junkie

(06-29-2009 01:26 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote: [ -> ]I am a non-Messianic Orthodox Jew who has taken
an interest in why gentiles are so attracted to the
Messianic movement.

I am not interested in becoming Messianic, nor am
I interested in doing "counter-missionary" work to
draw people away from it.

I'm simply here to learn more and satisfy my curiosity
of it's growth amongst gentiles.

I am a medical professional, married to a wonderful man
for many many years, an avid reader and an avid traveler
(seems like I always end up going to Israel so I haven't
seen a lot of the rest of the world).

I'm also a forum junkie

SheitlQueen,

Glad you introduced yourself. I figured you were Orthodox. Perhaps you could tell the non Hebrew speaking readers what your name means.

You came to the right forum for a mixed bag of beliefs about the messianic movement. And why Gentiles and Jews are being drawn to it. Many are trying to merge those beliefs by taking the appearance of bits from both Judaism and Christianity-which makes their beliefs neither.

I've dialogued with many Othodox, Reform Jews and others, and there is clearly a distinction and difference in our beliefs.

Anyway, I am sure we will have some interesting discussions.

Make yourself at home, and keep in mind we discuss from a Christian perspective and as Christians, with use of the Scriptures, both Tanakh, and New Testament. As long as your realise that...

Re the forum junkie...there's a few here that can probably make that claim also. [/color]

(06-29-2009 01:47 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps you could tell the non Hebrew speaking readers what your name means.

I would be happy to. It's actually yiddish for "wig".

Orthodox married women cover their hair. It can be by
a scarf, a hat , a wig...I use a wig because I prefer
it's look over a hat/scarf. I have a lot of them in
different styles and colors, so I consider myself
the queen of sheitls, thus SheitlQueen.

Quote: Many are trying to merge those beliefs by taking the appearance of bits from both Judaism and Christianity-which makes their beliefs neither.

I've noticed that....I was wondering how some try to merge
two divergent beliefs. But that's why I'm here!

Quote:I've dialogued with many Othodox, Reform Jews and others, and there is clearly a distinction and difference in our beliefs.

Oh, most definite....that's what makes discussions interesting.

Quote:Make yourself at home, and keep in mind we discuss from a Christian perspective and as Christians, with use of the Scriptures, both Tanakh, and New Testament. As long as your realise that...

Oh, I always know whose home I am in

(06-29-2009 02:11 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-29-2009 01:47 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps you could tell the non Hebrew speaking readers what your name means.

I would be happy to. It's actually yiddish for "wig".

Orthodox married women cover their hair. It can be by
a scarf, a hat , a wig...I use a wig because I prefer
it's look over a hat/scarf. I have a lot of them in
different styles and colors, so I consider myself
the queen of sheitls, thus SheitlQueen.

Quote: Many are trying to merge those beliefs by taking the appearance of bits from both Judaism and Christianity-which makes their beliefs neither.

I've noticed that....I was wondering how some try to merge
two divergent beliefs. But that's why I'm here!

Quote:I've dialogued with many Othodox, Reform Jews and others, and there is clearly a distinction and difference in our beliefs.

Oh, most definite....that's what makes discussions interesting.

Quote:Make yourself at home, and keep in mind we discuss from a Christian perspective and as Christians, with use of the Scriptures, both Tanakh, and New Testament. As long as your realise that...

Oh, I always know whose home I am in

Welcome again Sheitlqueen!

I love cats - your avatar is cute

Having been a former "Messy", the thought is that one must practice Jewishness in order to understand the Scriptures, be like Jesus - who was born a Jew, and keep all the commandments of God - which they consider is Torah and above the NT. There are a ton of concepts, leaders, websites, teachings that twist Judaism and try to force it into a Christian system, although Messys do not like to be called Christians. They feel that is too pagan

If you have had much experience with Messianic Judaism, I am sure you know the "rant" You can also see how the MJ or Hebrew Roots movement is made up just by reading most of the threads in the Hebrew Roots section.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts, and learning how Judaism is actually practiced. Although research does help, it's always cool to get more feedback

We hope you are blessed here

(06-29-2009 02:32 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]I love cats - your avatar is cute

Thank you....the eyes are supposed to move back and forth
(kind of like those old wall clocks...) but for some reason
they don't do it on the avatar here.

Quote: teachings that twist Judaism and try to force it into a Christian system, although Messys do not like to be called Christians. They feel that is too pagan

Yeah, I've noticed they try to bend Judaism around Christian beliefs.
Can't be done. I've also noticed they get very offend if you call
them "Christian", which I don't understand because 99% of them
are gentiles who agree with the basics of Christian theology.

Quote:If you have had much experience with Messianic Judaism, I am sure you know the "rant" You can also see how the MJ or Hebrew Roots movement is made up just by reading most of the threads in the Hebrew Roots section.

When I registered for this forum, I thought the two Messie forums would
be composed of pro-Messianics, but it seems to be the opposite.
Which is nice, I've skimmed through a lot of Messianic forums but it
will be nice to see the opinions of "regular" Christians on the
Messianic "faith" ( I won't call it "M Judaism" )

Quote:We look forward to hearing your thoughts, and learning how Judaism is actually practiced. Although research does help, it's always cool to get more feedback

Well, thanks, but that isn't really why I came...I came to try to figure
out this whole Messianic thing amongst gentiles. I must admit I just
don't understand why they think that by acting more "Jewish" it
makes them closer to G-d and Jesus, and closer to what "true"
Christianity should be/originally was.

Quote:We hope you are blessed here [/b][/color]

Thank you, may the Almighty bless you and yours!

(06-29-2009 03:06 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote: [ -> ]...Yeah, I've noticed they try to bend Judaism around Christian beliefs.
Can't be done. I've also noticed they get very offend if you call
them "Christian", which I don't understand because 99% of them
are gentiles who agree with the basics of Christian theology.

I think its an assumption by many to think that they agree with the basic doctrines. But many reject Christ, and the very foundations of Christianity. When they start they may agree...but their beliefs change drastically. There are of course those who do hold to the basics, but then try to add to them by being part of Judaism also. And you are right, it cannot be done, because they are separate belief systems. They just don't seem able to grasp that.

Quote:When I registered for this forum, I thought the two Messie forums would be composed of pro-Messianics, but it seems to be the opposite. Which is nice, I've skimmed through a lot of Messianic forums but it will be nice to see the opinions of "regular" Christians on the
Messianic "faith" ( I won't call it "M Judaism" )

There are actually pro Messianic and Hebrew roots members. Some have had to be banned due to terrible attitudes. But there are still some on and many readers. There are also former messianic/hebrew roots members, who are Christians, which is partly why the total refutation against it.

I am not so sure we would be viewed as "regular" Christians by many, because we also speak against all sorts of messed up doctrine in regular Christianity. But, we think we are "normal' Christians....

to the forum SheitlQueen,

thanks for your intro. It will certainly be fun to have you aboard! Thanks to you I now have the following song in my head thank you very much!! You've probably seen this before but just in case you havent heres a welcome video for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-a3PWSou7k

(06-29-2009 03:06 PM)SheitlQueen Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you....the eyes are supposed to move back and forth
(kind of like those old wall clocks...) but for some reason
they don't do it on the avatar here.

It's funny, but when your avatar first popped on, the eyes moved back and forth, now they don't. Must be this system won't allow for it. My avatar is supposed to move too, but is stationary. One of those little "glitches" we must live with!

Quote:Yeah, I've noticed they try to bend Judaism around Christian beliefs.
Can't be done. I've also noticed they get very offend if you call
them "Christian", which I don't understand because 99% of them
are gentiles who agree with the basics of Christian theology.

Vic pointed out some differences which I agree with. Also, Christianity as presumed to be "pagan", turns the focus on Hebraic thought, rather than Greek, which they feel defines the NT into paganism rather than a "proper" Hebraic "mindset" interpretation of the Scriptures. Many in MJ believe that the NT was written in either Hebrew or Aramaic and then "re-translate" it to reflect a theological bias to force it to be more "Torah friendly"

I am sure you noticed the aversion to calling the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Again, MJ prefers Yeshua and yahshua - which you agreed was incorrect Hebrew. Or they will even use J-sus or Chr-st to insert that Rabbinic concept into their own practice. It's an odd conundrum that goes in a zillion tangents

Quote:When I registered for this forum, I thought the two Messie forums wouldbe composed of pro-Messianics, but it seems to be the opposite.
Which is nice, I've skimmed through a lot of Messianic forums but it
will be nice to see the opinions of "regular" Christians on the
Messianic "faith" ( I won't call it "M Judaism" )

Messianics are not so thrilled But our aim is to show the absurdity and downright false teachings of the Messianic movement. Some of us are former Messianics, so it's to our advantage to have a good solid forum to jump on a soapbox

Quote:Well, thanks, but that isn't really why I came...I came to try to figureout this whole Messianic thing amongst gentiles. I must admit I just
don't understand why they think that by acting more "Jewish" it
makes them closer to G-d and Jesus, and closer to what "true"
Christianity should be/originally was.

It has to do with a false premise - that because Jesus was born a Jew and kept Torah that they should also. Jesus told people to keep the commandments, so MJers force Torah into that understanding. Jesus taught a new covenant - which hung on the Law and Prophets, but was different in that His commandments were simplified to reflect a life of loving God above all and others as yourself. Although that concept can be found in Torah, Jesus' perspective went a bit further in that the Law is written on the heart via the Holy Spirit through His death and resurrection.

Christianity does not require Torah observance, but that the Law is fulfilled in Christ and in love towards others, through the grace and faith of God.

Messianics also believe that the Jews are the chosen nation of God, and therefore, they want to be included in that "favor". So they presume to incorporate Judaism into their religious practice thinking that God will be pleased and the Jewish people will be impressed. Many Messianics believe that they are really blood-line Jews through Ephraim [which they call the "lost" tribes of Israel scattered all over the world, but predominately in the USA] - which is also known as the Ephraimite movement or Two House.

The 2H MJers believe that by practicing Judaism as they use it, will make the Jews jealous, will encourage a brotherhood between the "House of Judah" [Jewish people] and the "House of Israel" aka the Ephramites and usher in the return of Christ [based on Ezekiel 37 - two sticks into one] ........ and, are equal inheritors of the promised land with the Jews. It gets pretty screwy - just tying to keep it simple

(06-29-2009 03:52 PM)Rose of Shushan Wrote: [ -> ] to the forum SheitlQueen,

thanks for your intro. It will certainly be fun to have you aboard! Thanks to you I now have the following song in my head thank you very much!! You've probably seen this before but just in case you havent heres a welcome video for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-a3PWSou7k

LOL, I haven't seen that video in a long time and forgot all about it!
thanks for the link and the reminder.

I actually did think about taking a course to become a sheitl macher,
but decided I didn't want the responsibility of messing up some one's
sheitl.....especially some $3,000 custom European job....