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(07-31-2009 11:32 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-29-2009 01:55 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: [ -> ]Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Act 9:23 And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:[/size][/font][/color]

Thanx for this verse! It really hit me as a perfect refutation for Messianics who say that Paul kept the Law. If he was promoting it and keeping it so perfectly, then why did the Jews [religious] want to kill him? They should have been pleased that he was continuing in the Law and showing them their Messiah! Th_ththink
Th_goodpointIcon_ditto
Well we can narrow it down. It cant be Peter, Aquilla, Barnabas, Silas, Etc. It had to be written by someone who had been a pharisee under Gamaliel (who was the leading Pharisee Teacher at that time.

It is the perfect letter to take an interested Jew through because it speaks at their level and in their language.

He probably did not sign it BECAUSE he had a bad reputation with the very people it seems intended for. Hebrew 6 implies that it was for non-believers who had actually heard and Seen Jesus.

The same problem exists today. I can witness from the Old Testament to a Jew just like my namesake and yet, as soon as I mention Jesus.... they Hang up or walk away.

Paul would have likely had that happen with his name!

And part of why God would have changed it. But that only would last so long.

Hebrews seems to match up with two other of Paul's Letters; namely, Romans and Galaitans. they are similar in that they All appraoch the Gospel in relation to the Law and Promises of the OT.

they All also quote:

Habakkuk 2:4 * Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
(01-29-2010 02:23 PM)Scotchman Wrote: [ -> ]Hebrew 6 implies that it was for non-believers who had actually heard and Seen Jesus.

If Heb 6 is for non-believers, then why does the writer start out the chapter by saying this:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


If he was speaking to non-believers, what would they know of faith towards God.

Also, please note that Paul says in verse 4 that those who have partaken of the Holy Spirit and fall away will find it impossible to repent again. hmmmm. So, you are saying that this verse means these non believers never believed and it would be impossible for them to be saved?

Then we come to verse 9 which shows that Paul is speaking to believers. You cannot minister to the saints unless you are a fellow believer - and the cool point he makes is that he is speaking of those who have salvation!


Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.


Definitely talking to believers here:

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hi Folks,

Careful when you copy fascinating information that is not in the more standard lists.


grafted Wrote:It is listed in the Codex Barococcio, 206AD, before the official canonization.

The Codices Barocciani (proper spelling) are, combined, number 206, not 206 AD, located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford England. They are about 700 AD and not particularly relevant to the discussion.

This error has been all over the net, including some of the scholars articles and authors (Lambert Dolphin, David Robert Palmer (textual apparatus), David Bernard, Grant Richison, John Teague, Richard Riss, blueletterbible, canon lists and much more.) This factoid (used for more than Hebrews) is a good example of the pitfalls of web info, unverified. The textualcriticism list went over this in March, 2008.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Hi Folks,

A bit of a FYI on the Codex Barococcio history.

The original source of this error was almost surely Norman Geisler and William Nix in the early editions of "The General Introduction to the Bible", the 1968 edition and apparently as late as the 1986 edition, removed in the 1996. Also likely the 1974 From God to Us: How We Got Our Bible.

The detective work on the textualcriticism list shows that they misread an entry from Westcott on canon lists. The error was pretty bad, even if understandable in terms of some ambiguity in the Westcott numbers (date or codex). Apparently, to their uncredit, Geisler and Nix never put in a correction in the later editions, they just dropped the misinformation.

As the great communicator said .. "trust, but verify" .. especially when it sounds too good to be true.

========

From an integrity standpoint it would be interesting to check the details of how Geisler handled or mishandled this, the 1986 edition is still for sale on Amazon. Their error can give a Christian apologist a lot of egg on the face in discussions with skeptics and others, as well as simply leading to false concepts and theories.

The proper way to handle such a situation (putting aside better original checking) is to place a clear correction in future editions. And, though more cumbersome, also seek to place an errata sheet if the old edition is being sold.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Hi Steven,

What is the textualcriticism list? it's purpose, etc. for or against the revised Greek etc? I am not familiar with that.
Hi Folks,

Vic Wrote:What is the textualcriticism list? it's purpose, etc. for or against the revised Greek etc?

No official position is taken, however the paradigms of modern "textual criticism" tend to attract modern versionists since to a large degree textual criticism == Hortianism.

However, some times there is good information that is hashed out there.

textualcriticism
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/


A similar forum that is looser and more open to paradigm examination is :

TC-Alternate
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TC-Alternate-list/

Shalom,
Steven Avery
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