SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

(07-24-2010 03:35 PM)Padre Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps Vic can provide a link.

Let me provide something for you to think about. Say that one has a glass of water and a drop of poison is added to it - would you still drink it even though 99+% of it is still pure?

Both Jesus and Paul warned us that a little leaven works its way through the whole loaf. It does not matter if Mr Jeremiah teaches a particle of "truth", it is contaminated and impure because of his mystic slant on the Word of God.

Everything you need to form an opinion about him is on the net. I just spent some time researching him, his own words and recordings. Did not take long to confirm what Vic and Sheep are saying. Take a few minutes and look for yourself. Seems to me that it is much more than "one drop of poison".

Here are some great articles on the hazards of the Emergent Church Movement. They sharpened my discernment on this subject.
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/emergentchurch.php

Good morning,

The last course I took at Trinity Western supposedly on ethics had a "contemplative" element that raised red flags but I dismissed them. Later, I began to understand the dangers of this movement. My point is that it is very seductive. I have known some very solid Christians that started down this road. Does Dr. Jeremiah still advance these ideas? Have the administraters brought these concerns to him?

How wrong does one have to be to be a false teacher? I know there are things I have taught in the past that I have since reconsidered ... such as the role and activity of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation. Of course to many on this sight my pre-trib views qualify me as a false teacher.

So leaving Jerimiah behind let's look at the qualifications for false teachers. Their characteristics and motivations are amply illustrated in the NT. So much so that I would include in thnis category those who for lack of a better way to put it might teach quite soudly but for the wrong reasons or motives. So let's just look at doctrine. I would maintain a false teacher is one who denies essential christian teachings. I would view TD Jakes in this category because he teaches a form of oneness. But I do not consider JI Packer one because he believes the sign gifts are normative for today.

Padre

I think there are hundreds of ministers and pastors who have been caught up in The Emergent Church teachings and Ric Warren's teachings, along with Prosperity Teachings, and "name it and claim it" teachings and etc....and have been lead astray as well as they lead their people astray. It is difficult today to find a church that hasn't some of these teachings! But, to label all as "wolves" is a little harsh, I think. A lack of discernment, yes. Deceived, yes. All wolves, no. Many wolves, yes! It is difficult today as a Christian to find a church that is not contaminated.....and even if you did find one that was not contaminated, is full of sinners saved by Grace. And I'm one of those sinners!

We need to read and study our Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us as we read God's Word. Rightly divide the Word of God. Be informed of false teachings. We all can slip into being coming Pharisees, self included if we don't watch ourselves and become dogmatic. We are to judge the "fruit" by all means, but lump everyone by association is not a good thing. Are we drowning in Apostasy? YES!!!! We live in dangerous times both physically and spiritually and authentic believers in Christ are few and far between. Many people claim to be Christians, but saying so, doesn't make it so!

There is a fine line to walk in not become legalistic, something I fear for myself. I've been in churches that were and left them. Saw what it does in families.

Vic we need people like you! Who research and give us great information. I may not agree with you on everything, but I am willing to read it and digest it, and pray over it. I am not a follower but an independent thinker. And I don't mind admitting that I am not the sharpest crayon in the box, and I maybe not be as smart as everyone here, but I am always willing to "learn".

Take Care and God Bless <><

(10-29-2011 04:05 PM)Gods Lamb Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are hundreds of ministers and pastors who have been caught up in The Emergent Church teachings and Ric Warren's teachings, along with Prosperity Teachings, and "name it and claim it" teachings and etc....and have been lead astray as well as they lead their people astray. It is difficult today to find a church that hasn't some of these teachings! But, to label all as "wolves" is a little harsh, I think. A lack of discernment, yes. Deceived, yes. All wolves, no. Many wolves, yes! It is difficult today as a Christian to find a church that is not contaminated.....and even if you did find one that was not contaminated, is full of sinners saved by Grace. And I'm one of those sinners!

We need to read and study our Bible. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us as we read God's Word. Rightly divide the Word of God. Be informed of false teachings. We all can slip into being coming Pharisees, self included if we don't watch ourselves and become dogmatic. We are to judge the "fruit" by all means, but lump everyone by association is not a good thing. Are we drowning in Apostasy? YES!!!! We live in dangerous times both physically and spiritually and authentic believers in Christ are few and far between. Many people claim to be Christians, but saying so, doesn't make it so!

There is a fine line to walk in not become legalistic, something I fear for myself. I've been in churches that were and left them. Saw what it does in families.

Vic we need people like you! Who research and give us great information. I may not agree with you on everything, but I am willing to read it and digest it, and pray over it. I am not a follower but an independent thinker. And I don't mind admitting that I am not the sharpest crayon in the box, and I maybe not be as smart as everyone here, but I am always willing to "learn".

Take Care and God Bless <><

Hi Marie, Some good observations and thoughts. The problem is with leadership and false doctrine, ---how much leeway does one allow the 'shepherd' to lead the flock, over the cliff? Just to the edge? Just to the brink of error?

You are right, we are all sinners and all can be deceived and all can learn from deceptions and correct our doctrine. The problem is with these movements, like Warrens purpose and emergent and contemplative ...as one said above it's seductive and it's easily infiltrated into thinking. A little leaven really does leaven everything and allows for more and more error.

If leadership is lacking discernment and understanding of Scripture and embraces and promotes this stuff, it's time for the adherents to step away. And that person in my estimation, is no longer in a position to teach anything. Because they have been in a position of trust and seriously --in many cases, destroyed spiritual lives because of the direction they have taken those who would listen to them instead of proving all things to the Word themselves.

The Scripture about leadership is to be an example of living Christ and following and teaching sound doctrine that can stand the test of Scripture. Can there be mistakes---absolutely. But, another gospel and another Jesus is more than a mistake. It's not understanding the very essence and foundation of who Jesus Christ is, the Gospel or the Scriptures. And that is what is allowing the error of these movements. And someone who advances that, is not someone I would easily allow to present anything to me, unless it was a testimony of full repentance of those things. And merely to warn others of that error. There can still be blessing from a fellow believer who has erred in those things, but it would take some time and proving the spirit, before what they have to offer would/could be viewed as acceptable.

Paul didn't access the Christians immediately after persecuting them. It took time to teach him and for the others to be able to be open to God using him despite what he had done. Someone who has misled God's people while claiming to be of Christ, and taught another Gospel and another Jesus, and false doctrine needs to sit and be quiet and learn the foundations and prove they actually do now believe them.

I guess I have seen many who have and are misleading believers, and some change and reinvent themselves and move from one doctrinal error to another without batting an eye and the leaven is accepted by those who would listen. Some subtle, some glaring, but in the end, the compromising of beliefs destroys and takes people away from Christ. And that is unacceptable and many who say they change or repent and move on in the same teaching capacity--really don't see what they have done. And that means to me that they really haven't learned from it.

Thanks for the encouragement. I;ve been appreciating your posts. If you take nothing from this website but this, know it's about Christ, about a relationship with HIm, serving Him and being obedient to Him through the Scriptures. It's not about legalism. It's fully about Him.

I agree Vic that "all" false teachings needs to be "exposed"! That's a given. But guilt by association doesn't mean you're always guilty. People change. Views change. People get off track, but down the road get back on track.
And yes, leaders are held highly responsible for leading people astray.

But, how many are being led astray? Paul talked about this and of the doctrines of demons. Many want a Jesus of their own making, not the Jesus of the Bible, and they read the Bible like they eat fish. At some point, sheep need to be held accountable, too for their "acceptance of views and beliefs" contrary to God's Word!

But, I think we are on a slippery slope when we "lump" or "group" everyone in a guilty box by association. Yes, there many wolves out there. Christianity is dying....except for "true believers in Christ Jesus". The Church has re-imaged itself, the Bible, Jesus, it's music, and etc. Until it has turned itself into a "living dead" monster of a Church. It should be no surprise to us if we are living in the end times. But, you know what? I am shocked all the time what the church does and says.

Again, thanks Vic for your information......I agree 98% of it.

Take Care and God Bless <><

(10-30-2011 04:26 PM)Gods Lamb Wrote: [ -> ]I agree Vic that "all" false teachings needs to be "exposed"! That's a given. But guilt by association doesn't mean you're always guilty. People change. Views change. People get off track, but down the road get back on track.
And yes, leaders are held highly responsible for leading people astray.

But, how many are being led astray? Paul talked about this and of the doctrines of demons. Many want a Jesus of their own making, not the Jesus of the Bible, and they read the Bible like they eat fish. At some point, sheep need to be held accountable, too for their "acceptance of views and beliefs" contrary to God's Word!

But, I think we are on a slippery slope when we "lump" or "group" everyone in a guilty box by association. Yes, there many wolves out there. Christianity is dying....except for "true believers in Christ Jesus". The Church has re-imaged itself, the Bible, Jesus, it's music, and etc. Until it has turned itself into a "living dead" monster of a Church. It should be no surprise to us if we are living in the end times. But, you know what? I am shocked all the time what the church does and says.

Again, thanks Vic for your information......I agree 98% of it.

Take Care and God Bless <><

I think there's a huge difference between the Body of Christ and the church/religious etc. There's much under the banner of Christianity that is not of Christ whatsoever.

Every believer is responsible for their spiritual care and condition. Including knowledge of and use of the Scriptures to discern between truth and error. That's the point and it includes those who are in leadership positions.
We were never called to blindly follow anyone. But those who claim those leadership roles are accountable to teach Truth, just as Timothy was admonished by Paul. THey are to be found faithful in the Word. In essence the example of the apostles comes to mind, who once committed stayed the course. Issues were settled through much prayer and understanding via the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, those who belong to Christ are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.

While looking into David Jeremiah another web site mentioned that the stained glass decoration in his church,
Shadow Mountain Church,looked like the eye of Horus but they did not have proof of this.I like proof.So I looked through
videos on their web site to see if I can get a screen shot to look at and share.It does look like a mosaic Illuminati all seeing eye,eye of Horus,in my opinion.There is definitely eye shapes there.You can't tell it as well from close up.You can see it better from far away.
The first image is on their home page.You can watch archived services from their web site.I watched a video of one of their baptism services.
That is where I took the second screen shot.They are actually baptizing people right under this all seeing eye symbol.







I just don't know how you accidentally make a mosaic that gives the appearance of an occult symbol.
They also have a cross in a circle symbol in the middle.
From symbols.com

Quote:The wheel cross, sun cross, Odin's cross or Woden's cross. Nordic Odin and Teutonic Wuotan or Woden was the supreme god of the Nordic religion before Christianity.
Odin was the god of art, culture, warfare, and the dead;
In modern astrology it is the sign for the planet Earth,
the astrological element earth, and Fortuna, the Part of Fortune, an important position in the natal chart related to progress and hindrances in the material aspect of an individual's life.

I noticed how there is a red circle that has a red dot in the middle.The pagan symbol for air is a circle with a dot in the middle.It is also a sun symbol.
They actually do have all four of the pagan symbols for earth,air,fire and water represented there.
Again it is hard for me to believe that all of this symbolism is an accident.

His web site is really all about pimping his books and material.

I was shocked that they have this "Leave a Legacy" area...

Quote:Leave a legacy of love for God and His Word.Your strategic planning can impact God's Kingdom
for generations by naming Turning Point in your will or trust.

Here davidjeremiahgift.org they have a Turning Point Gift and Estate Designer where they show you how to do it all and if you need any more help with
leaving your estate to them they have a Director of Gift and Estate Design that you can call or email for help.
I know they are all vying for people's money but this is the first time I have seen them flat out,step by step show you how to will your estate to them.
I know people die and leave money to various "ministries" but this is just in such poor taste.IMO
There is barely anything at all on his web site that you can read/access for free.The site is all about advertising his books/materials and very little about God.

He has the typical OT tithe belief of giving 10% but then takes it a step further by also adopting the NT way of giving.
Quote from Hot Topic: Giving to God: Why, When, & How on his web site

Quote:Giving ten percent of what you receive back to the Lord was the Old Testament law of the tithe. In the New Testament,
we go from the concept of percentage to the concept of proportion. We start with a tithe and then evaluate God's blessing in our lives,
and give in proportion to His blessing.

The bible does not say that we start with "the Old Testament law of the tithe" and then basically work our ways into the NT way of giving.
According to him we are to start with the "letter of the law".
The bible says
Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

I'm not going to get into tithing here.Vic did a whole series on tithing that is actually biblical here http://www.seekgod.ca/tithing.htm

I am quoting from here on his web site davidjeremiah.org/site/content.aspx?id=7735

Quote:When should I begin to give?
Some people say, "Well, I can't start giving to God until I get out of this financial mess."
No, the best way to get out of the financial mess is to start giving to God now. What you need is a good blessing,
and God blesses those who give to Him. If you try to wait until you get out of trouble, you will forget how badly you needed God.
And, you probably won't ever get "out" to begin with.

We need to make sure we have the right motives when giving.
This is giving to try to get something a "blessing" instead of being led by the Spirit.
In his scenario,this is being led by fear to give not being led by God.
Actually,that is not even giving at all.That is loaning.
Give is to present voluntarily and without expecting compensation.
Loan is money lent at interest,something lent usually for the borrower's temporary use.

Jesus said,
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive


With this kind of "giving",you are not only expecting to get the money back,you expect it back with some kind of divine interest.
He is also telling someone in "financial mess"that the way to get out of the "financial mess"is to spend more money.
That does not even make sense.

He says, "you probably won't ever get "out" to begin with".So,God won't help you "out" unless you give money to him?
Where in the bible does it say that God won't help you unless you tithe to him?That actually sounds kind of mean,"you probably won't ever get "out" to begin with".
So God says,You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours?
You do a favor for me first and then I'll do a favor for you.
Is this really how we should be,hyper focused on giving to receiving.
The miracle of the loafs and fishes came to mind while writing this.

Mat 15:32 Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days,
and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.

The people in this verse had been focused on following Jesus,seeing Jesus,hearing Jesus so much that they had not even eaten for days.If you go read the whole story.The people did not even ask Jesus for food.
Jesus wasn't ignorant of the situation.He knew they had been following after Him and needed to eat.He had "compassion" on them.He didn't say to the people,You all have to tithe something to me first then I will feed you.
He knew they had a need.He had "compassion" on them and He filled their need.

Php 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

God's character is such that He gave His only begotten Son to suffer and die for us.
What did we tithe to Him first that He gave us such a Gift?
Nothing.

The cross in a circle is Masonic, but other religions use it as well. Were the cross arms extending beyond the circle, it would be a Celtic cross. The cross-in-a-crown variation is used by JWs and Christian Scientists, but they got it from Freemasonry.