12-17-2008, 09:52 PM
I can not figure this out. There was a Jewish man on a Christian station being billed as an expert on the roots of Christianity, but he openly denies Jesus who IS the root of Christianity. Can someone please explain this?
12-17-2008, 09:52 PM
12-17-2008, 10:23 PM
(12-17-2008 09:52 PM)Inquiring Mind Wrote: [ -> ]I can not figure this out. There was a Jewish man on a Christian station being billed as an expert on the roots of Christianity, but he openly denies Jesus who IS the root of Christianity. Can someone please explain this?
Welcome to the forum Inquiring Mind.
Interesting first post. A challenge to answer. There appears to be confusion for many as to where we should look for answers to life's questions as well as spiritual and biblical wisdom. People are being drawn into believing that Jewish roots or Hebrew Roots or having a Jewish mindset or hebrew mindset, etc., is necessary to understand the Scriptures. Jesus is the Root--no doubt in my mind.
Rom 15:12
(12) And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he has no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
And unless a person knows Jesus Christ, they do not understand Biblical things according to Him, and we need to follow Him and the Word on these matters.
Rom 11:16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
1Co 2:9-16
(9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
(10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
(11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
(16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
I am sure someone will say more.
Good question.
Look forward to more of your input.12-18-2008, 05:07 AM
Here is the problem as I see it. Pastors and Christians hang on this Jewish man's every word, believing that he is an "expert" on the roots of the Christian faith. Are these pastors who promote this man so unlearned in the Bible that they do not understand that Jesus is the root? If this is true, then why are they pastors leading the flock? I see a cliff up ahead.
not good
So this man is touted as an "expert", but denies Jesus....hmmm.
http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/e..._resources
not goodSo this man is touted as an "expert", but denies Jesus....hmmm.
http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/e..._resources
12-18-2008, 12:34 PM
[color]
Good point and good questions. Part of the issue is that while touting getting back to our Jewish Roots and other various names for it, and including the thought that Jesus WAS Jewish, we see the issue becoming being respecters of persons.
(Jas 2:1) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...(Jas 2:4) Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
The fact that the person is not a believer in Jesus Christ is no longer an issue as the thirst for this special knowledge is viewed as providing somethng that Christians cannot have---a Hebrew mindset. That means their understanding can never be what it is supposed to be --according to some. Yet, Scriptures tell us--we have the mind of Christ if we belong to Him and it is the Holy Spirit that gives us understanding.
Forgotten is the understanding that someone who rejects Jesus Christ and the New Testament, cannot possibly give any understanding concerning them or in fact can their interpretation of the OT be correct for Christians because interpretation of for example, prophecies concerning the coming Messiah are, for them, not fulfilled in Christ, believing He did not meet the requirements.
That means also many are distorting the Scriptures such as
(Zec 8:23) Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Many are confusing the meaning, believing that they will/should learn from Jews, when it is in fact a prophecy concerning Christ.
Many also include Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
I have done articles concerning IFCJ-International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, and what is happening is an ecumenical mindset that allows Christians to be taught by non-Christians, and as a 'support' of Jews. The fact that one is unsaved is secondary to the stated mission. http://www.seekgod.ca/apostles.htm
See Entire series also > http://www.seekgod.ca/topicpaths.htm#eject
It's noteworthy that the gentleman you are referring to within the IFCJ rejects Messianic or Hebrew Christians. His view is be either a Jew or a Christian. That is one of the problems within the movement---many are taking things from Christianity and things from Judaism and making a new religion with it--that is neither one or the other.
Another avenue that this is taking, where 'race' is an idol--that is--there is happening a form of "jew worship"-for lack of any other way to state it. It is found within Towards Jerusalen 2, where being Jewish is promoted as being the 'big brother' to Christians, "they are the head'-when in fact Jesus Christ is the head of the Body and so on.
It not only elminates or changes scripture and hence accepted doctrine, it puts people in a position of one being over the other, not walking as brothers and sisters in the Lord and so on. See .
http://www.seekgod.ca/jerusalem2.htm
(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(1Ti 1:4) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
(1Ti 1:5) Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (1Ti 1:6) From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
(1Ti 1:7) Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
AS for the pastors leading their followers astray with these doctrines---lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, not knowing Christ to start with or not recognising there is One Shepherd, and if they are worth their salt--they will always point to Christ and the Scriptures as the standard and source for all doctrine.
(Joh 10:11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (Joh 10:12) But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. (Joh 10:13) The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. (Joh 10:14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
My
worth.
(12-18-2008 05:07 AM)Inquiring Mind Wrote: [ -> ]Here is the problem as I see it. Pastors and Christians hang on this Jewish man's every word, believing that he is an "expert" on the roots of the Christian faith. Are these pastors who promote this man so unlearned in the Bible that they do not understand that Jesus is the root? If this is true, then why are they pastors leading the flock? I see a cliff up ahead.
So this man is touted as an "expert", but denies Jesus....hmmm.
http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/e..._resources
Good point and good questions. Part of the issue is that while touting getting back to our Jewish Roots and other various names for it, and including the thought that Jesus WAS Jewish, we see the issue becoming being respecters of persons.
(Jas 2:1) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...(Jas 2:4) Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
The fact that the person is not a believer in Jesus Christ is no longer an issue as the thirst for this special knowledge is viewed as providing somethng that Christians cannot have---a Hebrew mindset. That means their understanding can never be what it is supposed to be --according to some. Yet, Scriptures tell us--we have the mind of Christ if we belong to Him and it is the Holy Spirit that gives us understanding.
Forgotten is the understanding that someone who rejects Jesus Christ and the New Testament, cannot possibly give any understanding concerning them or in fact can their interpretation of the OT be correct for Christians because interpretation of for example, prophecies concerning the coming Messiah are, for them, not fulfilled in Christ, believing He did not meet the requirements.
That means also many are distorting the Scriptures such as
(Zec 8:23) Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Many are confusing the meaning, believing that they will/should learn from Jews, when it is in fact a prophecy concerning Christ.
Many also include Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
I have done articles concerning IFCJ-International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, and what is happening is an ecumenical mindset that allows Christians to be taught by non-Christians, and as a 'support' of Jews. The fact that one is unsaved is secondary to the stated mission. http://www.seekgod.ca/apostles.htm
See Entire series also > http://www.seekgod.ca/topicpaths.htm#eject
It's noteworthy that the gentleman you are referring to within the IFCJ rejects Messianic or Hebrew Christians. His view is be either a Jew or a Christian. That is one of the problems within the movement---many are taking things from Christianity and things from Judaism and making a new religion with it--that is neither one or the other.
Another avenue that this is taking, where 'race' is an idol--that is--there is happening a form of "jew worship"-for lack of any other way to state it. It is found within Towards Jerusalen 2, where being Jewish is promoted as being the 'big brother' to Christians, "they are the head'-when in fact Jesus Christ is the head of the Body and so on.
It not only elminates or changes scripture and hence accepted doctrine, it puts people in a position of one being over the other, not walking as brothers and sisters in the Lord and so on. See .
http://www.seekgod.ca/jerusalem2.htm
(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(1Ti 1:4) Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
(1Ti 1:5) Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (1Ti 1:6) From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
(1Ti 1:7) Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
AS for the pastors leading their followers astray with these doctrines---lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, not knowing Christ to start with or not recognising there is One Shepherd, and if they are worth their salt--they will always point to Christ and the Scriptures as the standard and source for all doctrine.
(Joh 10:11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (Joh 10:12) But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. (Joh 10:13) The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. (Joh 10:14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
My
worth.12-19-2008, 10:36 AM
Hi Inquiring Mind 
Welcome to the forum
and thanks for an excellent thread.
I went to the website of the Rabbi and the first page I was drawn to reading was Yael's column. Here she speaks about the poverty that Jews go through and gives us the poignant story of Moshe, a Ukrainian Jew and what he suffered in his life.
The story of course tore at my heart strings like it would any caring civilized Christian. But here's the catch and I'll share what happened to me in trying to explain it.
I encountered the same situation with another rabbi, let's call him Rabbi D.
Rabbi D goes around collecting money (amongst other things) to help needy Jews such as the ones spoken of in the website. So I contact Rabbi D and he is extremely nice and I send him money for the poor Jews now and then. He visits my town and we meet for coffee and of course I give him money. A Jewish friend of mine sees us and then comments to me about how the Rabbi has a program for girls where they're sent to be even more "orthodoxised" and my friend said one of her daughters was sent there once. Now of course this Rabbi may be involved in many things but this sent me thinking as to where exactly my money may have been going. Not long after this, I passed an email onto the Rabbi with one of those funny jokes, since he at times sent me some also. And to my dismay he sent me back an angry email saying never ever to send him an email that contains the name of Jesus again. I scanned through the email that I'd sent since I was usually careful not to forward anything that was overtly Christian and it turns out that the email I'd sent, being forwarded, contained somebody's signature line that included something to do with Jesus.
Well friends, I felt like I'd been slapped in the face and however nice this rabbi was he hates my Messiah. And then the ball dropped. When I gave my money to the poor Jews through this Rabbi, Jesus was not being glorified at all. There are other ways that I can give to Jewish people in Israel, many organizations that bless and give to the poor directly, yet it's done in the name of Jesus and Jesus gets proclaimed and is given the glory as we do so.
Needless to say the Rabbi never received another dollar from me.
Please if you are going to send money and support monetarily an organization that helps in Israel but is not Christian or Jesus related, then your support is not in the name of Jesus. I am not saying its wrong per se, but I would rather use my money to help and be a witness in the land at the same time.
The harvest is ripe and the laborers are few.
Welcome to the forum
and thanks for an excellent thread.I went to the website of the Rabbi and the first page I was drawn to reading was Yael's column. Here she speaks about the poverty that Jews go through and gives us the poignant story of Moshe, a Ukrainian Jew and what he suffered in his life.
The story of course tore at my heart strings like it would any caring civilized Christian. But here's the catch and I'll share what happened to me in trying to explain it.
I encountered the same situation with another rabbi, let's call him Rabbi D.
Rabbi D goes around collecting money (amongst other things) to help needy Jews such as the ones spoken of in the website. So I contact Rabbi D and he is extremely nice and I send him money for the poor Jews now and then. He visits my town and we meet for coffee and of course I give him money. A Jewish friend of mine sees us and then comments to me about how the Rabbi has a program for girls where they're sent to be even more "orthodoxised" and my friend said one of her daughters was sent there once. Now of course this Rabbi may be involved in many things but this sent me thinking as to where exactly my money may have been going. Not long after this, I passed an email onto the Rabbi with one of those funny jokes, since he at times sent me some also. And to my dismay he sent me back an angry email saying never ever to send him an email that contains the name of Jesus again. I scanned through the email that I'd sent since I was usually careful not to forward anything that was overtly Christian and it turns out that the email I'd sent, being forwarded, contained somebody's signature line that included something to do with Jesus.
Well friends, I felt like I'd been slapped in the face and however nice this rabbi was he hates my Messiah. And then the ball dropped. When I gave my money to the poor Jews through this Rabbi, Jesus was not being glorified at all. There are other ways that I can give to Jewish people in Israel, many organizations that bless and give to the poor directly, yet it's done in the name of Jesus and Jesus gets proclaimed and is given the glory as we do so.
Needless to say the Rabbi never received another dollar from me.
Please if you are going to send money and support monetarily an organization that helps in Israel but is not Christian or Jesus related, then your support is not in the name of Jesus. I am not saying its wrong per se, but I would rather use my money to help and be a witness in the land at the same time.
The harvest is ripe and the laborers are few.
12-21-2008, 03:00 PM
12-21-2008, 03:25 PM
Something went worng with post
EMJE
[/quote]
Hello
Judaisme is highly exalted, that is what i see now, looking back.
Last week someone asked on another forum:" Where does the idea come from that we ( christian believers) have to join the jews"?
I thought about that for a while and i answered.......
We don t have to "join"the jews, but we have to be grafted in the olivetree. According to my understanding this tree is Jesus or could mean israel. Israel makes sence......since God started with israel and he will end His plan with israel.
And Israel is the new name of Jacob.
His sons are therefor israel and one of his sons is called judah.
So its not all about jews!
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
The convenants of hope is plural here, so there is more then one?
We see in the tanack many convenants:
With adam and eve, with noach, with abraham and then with moses.
I see the convenant with abraham especially the one with Hope.....
And when i read : the law was added because of theyre transgressions and the law who was given 430 years later did NOT annul the promise.....
the picture is complete ( for me anyway).
Why messianic and HRM believers, don t see it this way, i really don t get it.....for me it jumped out out the lines, months ago.
When the law is added, it means that the law as given was not there before. The reason was theyre transgression, so these trangsgressions must have something to do with it.We see from adam and eve that menkind got wicked and more wicked. Even after noach and his adventure on the arc did, n t change mens wicked mind.
So it must have been in theyre DNA (lol)
So even when God decleared noach rightess, his DNA was stil from adam.
This was a sort of garantee that menkins would fail again.
Then the law......very precisely, what they should and should nt do,
and even efore moses came down with the 10, see what happend: the golden calf.
Also the 40 years in the desert....they murmered and complained all the way and where a pain in the butt!
So we see , whatever God did on the outside of men, it did n t work.
I suspect God did know this allready, but went this path with all of them anyway to prove His Holy point......menkind could never from itself please Him and live like He ment it to be.
[color]And now we.....ano 2008.
we still can t please Him. We still cant live up to His expectations.
Thank God His plan did n t stop with malachy the propfet.[/color]
EMJE
[quote='Emjesown' pid='221' dateline='1229887551']
Hello
Judaisme is highly exalted, that is what i see now, looking back.
Last week someone asked on another forum:" Where does the idea come from that we ( christian believers) have to join the jews"?
I thought about that for a while and i answered.......
We don t have to "join"the jews, but we have to be grafted in the olivetree. According to my understanding this tree is Jesus or could mean israel. Israel makes sence......since God started with israel and he will end His plan with israel.
And Israel is the new name of Jacob.
His sons are therefor israel and one of his sons is called judah.
So its not all about jews!
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
The convenants of hope is plural here, so there is more then one?
We see in the tanack many convenants:
With adam and eve, with noach, with abraham and then with moses.
I see the convenant with abraham especially the one with Hope.....
And when i read : the law was added because of theyre transgressions and the law who was given 430 years later did NOT annul the promise.....
the picture is complete ( for me anyway).
Why messianic and HRM believers, don t see it this way, i really don t get it.....for me it jumped out out the lines, months ago.
When the law is added, it means that the law as given was not there before. The reason was theyre transgression, so these trangsgressions must have something to do with it.We see from adam and eve that menkind got wicked and more wicked. Even after noach and his adventure on the arc did, n t change mens wicked mind.
So it must have been in theyre DNA (lol)
So even when God decleared noach rightess, his DNA was stil from adam.
This was a sort of garantee that menkins would fail again.
Then the law......very precisely, what they should and should nt do,
and even efore moses came down with the 10, see what happend: the golden calf.
Also the 40 years in the desert....they murmered and complained all the way and where a pain in the butt!
So we see , whatever God did on the outside of men, it did n t work.
I suspect God did know this allready, but went this path with all of them anyway to prove His Holy point......menkind could never from itself please Him and live like He ment it to be.
And now we.....ano 2008.
we still can t please Him. We still cant live up to His expectations.
Thank God His plan did n t stop with malachy the propfet.
EMJE
EMJE
[/quote]
Hello
Judaisme is highly exalted, that is what i see now, looking back.
Last week someone asked on another forum:" Where does the idea come from that we ( christian believers) have to join the jews"?
I thought about that for a while and i answered.......
We don t have to "join"the jews, but we have to be grafted in the olivetree. According to my understanding this tree is Jesus or could mean israel. Israel makes sence......since God started with israel and he will end His plan with israel.
And Israel is the new name of Jacob.
His sons are therefor israel and one of his sons is called judah.
So its not all about jews!
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
The convenants of hope is plural here, so there is more then one?
We see in the tanack many convenants:
With adam and eve, with noach, with abraham and then with moses.
I see the convenant with abraham especially the one with Hope.....
And when i read : the law was added because of theyre transgressions and the law who was given 430 years later did NOT annul the promise.....
the picture is complete ( for me anyway).
Why messianic and HRM believers, don t see it this way, i really don t get it.....for me it jumped out out the lines, months ago.
When the law is added, it means that the law as given was not there before. The reason was theyre transgression, so these trangsgressions must have something to do with it.We see from adam and eve that menkind got wicked and more wicked. Even after noach and his adventure on the arc did, n t change mens wicked mind.
So it must have been in theyre DNA (lol)
So even when God decleared noach rightess, his DNA was stil from adam.
This was a sort of garantee that menkins would fail again.
Then the law......very precisely, what they should and should nt do,
and even efore moses came down with the 10, see what happend: the golden calf.
Also the 40 years in the desert....they murmered and complained all the way and where a pain in the butt!
So we see , whatever God did on the outside of men, it did n t work.
I suspect God did know this allready, but went this path with all of them anyway to prove His Holy point......menkind could never from itself please Him and live like He ment it to be.
[color]And now we.....ano 2008.
we still can t please Him. We still cant live up to His expectations.
Thank God His plan did n t stop with malachy the propfet.[/color]
EMJE
[quote='Emjesown' pid='221' dateline='1229887551']
Hello
Judaisme is highly exalted, that is what i see now, looking back.
Last week someone asked on another forum:" Where does the idea come from that we ( christian believers) have to join the jews"?
I thought about that for a while and i answered.......
We don t have to "join"the jews, but we have to be grafted in the olivetree. According to my understanding this tree is Jesus or could mean israel. Israel makes sence......since God started with israel and he will end His plan with israel.
And Israel is the new name of Jacob.
His sons are therefor israel and one of his sons is called judah.
So its not all about jews!
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
The convenants of hope is plural here, so there is more then one?
We see in the tanack many convenants:
With adam and eve, with noach, with abraham and then with moses.
I see the convenant with abraham especially the one with Hope.....
And when i read : the law was added because of theyre transgressions and the law who was given 430 years later did NOT annul the promise.....
the picture is complete ( for me anyway).
Why messianic and HRM believers, don t see it this way, i really don t get it.....for me it jumped out out the lines, months ago.
When the law is added, it means that the law as given was not there before. The reason was theyre transgression, so these trangsgressions must have something to do with it.We see from adam and eve that menkind got wicked and more wicked. Even after noach and his adventure on the arc did, n t change mens wicked mind.
So it must have been in theyre DNA (lol)
So even when God decleared noach rightess, his DNA was stil from adam.
This was a sort of garantee that menkins would fail again.
Then the law......very precisely, what they should and should nt do,
and even efore moses came down with the 10, see what happend: the golden calf.
Also the 40 years in the desert....they murmered and complained all the way and where a pain in the butt!
So we see , whatever God did on the outside of men, it did n t work.
I suspect God did know this allready, but went this path with all of them anyway to prove His Holy point......menkind could never from itself please Him and live like He ment it to be.
And now we.....ano 2008.
we still can t please Him. We still cant live up to His expectations.
Thank God His plan did n t stop with malachy the propfet.
EMJE
12-23-2008, 08:20 PM