SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

In the Charismatic/Pentecostal denominations and offshoots of them, there is a doctrine called "the second blessing". Apparently this is an experience that is "subsequent" to conversion when they are filled with the Holy Spirit repeatedly.

The refutation I have heard is that a second blessing divides the Holy Spirit, because you can't get more of Him at some point - that He fully indwells at the point of conversion.

In refutation to that, the charismatic position is that they cannot find this in Scripture anywhere and that the exact opposite is true. And they use these Scriptures to prove it:

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

What is your take on this? How do you explain to a charismatic that these texts do not mean that you get "more" of the Holy Spirit?

And just to make it a little more interesting, the "second blessing" is also known as speaking in tongues in some charis circles.

Not that we get more of the Spirit, but that the Spirit leads us to accept more of what he offers. I hold that we are the old wineskins, not church structures, and that we need to have our minds renewed by him by his personal tutelage leading us to repentance, before we will even consider, really consider, what he offers: namely a totally free gift which is so at variance with wordly greed and cynicism that it will be rejected outright.

I am cynical, I know this., I foreswore love as a teenager, thinking that i would only be cut to pieces if i sought what could ever be found (as of course I was when i looked for it in th echurch, for my rejection was not consistent).

But the rejection remains, so He is leading me not to a second blessing, but to todays blessing, repentance as he leads it to an increasing understanding and eventual manifestation of a wonderful life here and now. No, not riches, but the fruit of the spirit

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second blessing? only two?

only speaking in tongues? if they think so their theology is as dead as those they oppose

(11-20-2009 02:45 AM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]Not that we get more of the Spirit, but that the Spirit leads us to accept more of what he offers. I hold that we are the old wineskins, not church structures, and that we need to have our minds renewed by him by his personal tutelage leading us to repentance, before we will even consider, really consider, what he offers: namely a totally free gift which is so at variance with wordly greed and cynicism that it will be rejected outright.

I am cynical, I know this., I foreswore love as a teenager, thinking that i would only be cut to pieces if i sought what could ever be found (as of course I was when i looked for it in th echurch, for my rejection was not consistent).

But the rejection remains, so He is leading me not to a second blessing, but to todays blessing, repentance as he leads it to an increasing understanding and eventual manifestation of a wonderful life here and now. No, not riches, but the fruit of the spirit

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second blessing? only two?

only speaking in tongues? if they think so their theology is as dead as those they oppose

Strefanesh, I'm sorry but I've read your post a few times now, and my response remains "what is he saying?" Can you be more clear please?

The charismatics have a point when they say there is more to be had and experienced. After all are the arid and dutiful lives we usually lead what God wants?

I do dispute that the charismatics in fact have what they talk about. But I do not dispute the principle they try to uphold here, even rthough they side track onto foolish idolatry regarding tongues

Some here have taken issue with the term "getting more of the Spirit" on the ground that we have all of Him if we are christians at all. THat is all very well but do we listen to him, trust him and accept his grace?

If so where is the joy, the abundant life, the peace?

So there is something missing, not necessarily the presence of the Holy Spirit, but our faith in him. We might have the Holy Spirit but we ignore him and it shows in our joyless lives, therefore we are backslidden

If we trusted him we would have love joy and peace in such a way as could not be denied. But uinbelievers deny it all the time, they are not confronted with anything more than people bravely trying to live up to some philosophy they hold.

So i said we neeeded to be brought to be more open to Him, then i said that the wineskins of the parable were not church structures as I have heard preached all the time, but rather our unbelief, then i gave a personal example of my own unbelief

If I am to believe that I really am a god loving saint, with deep faith , and love is not a feeling because i never feel it anyway, am i to hold that the arid life i lead IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS??????

(11-20-2009 02:16 PM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]The charismatics have a point when they say there is more to be had and experienced. After all are the arid and dutiful lives we usually lead what God wants?

I do dispute that the charismatics in fact have what they talk about. But I do not dispute the principle they try to uphold here, even rthough they side track onto foolish idolatry regarding tongues

Some here have taken issue with the term "getting more of the Spirit" on the ground that we have all of Him if we are christians at all. THat is all very well but do we listen to him, trust him and accept his grace?

If so where is the joy, the abundant life, the peace?

So there is something missing, not necessarily the presence of the Holy Spirit, but our faith in him. We might have the Holy Spirit but we ignore him and it shows in our joyless lives, therefore we are backslidden

If we trusted him we would have love joy and peace in such a way as could not be denied. But uinbelievers deny it all the time, they are not confronted with anything more than people bravely trying to live up to some philosophy they hold.

So i said we neeeded to be brought to be more open to Him, then i said that the wineskins of the parable were not church structures as I have heard preached all the time, but rather our unbelief, then i gave a personal example of my own unbelief

If I am to believe that I really am a god loving saint, with deep faith , and love is not a feeling because i never feel it anyway, am i to hold that the arid life i lead IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS??????

Thank you, that is a bit clearer. I think your answer is there in what you have said:
" do we listen to him, trust him and accept his grace?"

Why don't we all do a bible study of Ephesians together? The idea of "put on..." is very valid to your questions, but that is just one part of the book. Another thing, have you ever read Ecclesiastes? I know in other posts you say you don't read the bible, so if you respond to me with that same answer, then my answer to you is "Yes (your life) is as good as it gets" and sadly may become worse.

Yes, I remember Ecclesiastes: the ultimate in nihiistic despair for a life without God then offering the only solution, "Remember the creator in the days of your youth".

I have in fact read the whole Bible, i am just so terrified by my continuing misreadings that I cannot bear to read it now

As for "putting on christ" I take that as yet another synonym for the change that come about as we are lead to repent by the one on one communion with the Holy Spirit.

I mean, it is pointless to say that we put on christ when we say some ritual words in the morning (i have heard some do this) then behave as we do in the day.

But is my life as good as it gets? having been lead to be honest with God, to come out with all the blaming of him I have done in my heart and never acknowledged etc etc, as he works his work in my life to even want to respond to him, well the answer is increasingly NO NO NO!!

there is much pain still as i dare not let go and trust him, but his continuing revelation to me (not of new extrabiblical doctrine but of biblical doctrine i ignored) gives me increasingly clearer glimpses that I am inching ever closer to SOMETHING WONDERFUL.

and where will i be when i get it? back at the very beginning of my christian life when He showed me these things and I ignored Him then because my carnal reading of the Bible would not admit the truth he showed me.

having run in futile circles around out behind the dressing sheds, to my own exhaustion and detriment i will be led back to the starting line to run the race for the first time, and it wil be a run in rest, a war in peace etc etc etc, and abundant life.

but not yet. i am too afraid, what i know cannot make me over come this, only He who I have met can persuade me on this

and this personal persuasion, one on one, is what grace is

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(07-31-2009 07:34 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]In the Charismatic/Pentecostal denominations and offshoots of them, there is a doctrine called "the second blessing". Apparently this is an experience that is "subsequent" to conversion when they are filled with the Holy Spirit repeatedly.


And just to make it a little more interesting, the "second blessing" is also known as speaking in tongues in some charis circles.

It seems that the charismatics want to be transformed by a dramatic experience, rather than by an ongoing personal relationship. Of course the relationship does not preclude experience, my own "twin revelation of the two things i feared most" back in 1983 is an example. but the experience did not transform me, it only showed me there was still Someone out there who could and would.

I hold that their emphasis has twisted into idolatry but to reject experience because of it is the opposite error.

Of course to me the Bible is not the alternative to experience as if the Bible made them unnecessary. Certainly not, to me the Bible is the benchmark for judging whether any particular experience is of God.

It might be safe to reject spiritual experiences, but to me it is the safety of the grave

As for "putting on christ" I take that as yet another synonym for the change that come about as we are lead to repent by the one on one communion with the Holy Spirit.

I mean, it is pointless to say that we put on christ when we say some ritual words in the morning (i have heard some do this) then behave as we do in the day.

Strefanesh, the reason I raised the point about the concept of "put on" is that I believe from many of your posts that you "put on" or adopt the persona of a man who is in continual despair and self abasement. It's funny you should talk about "ritual" words because that is exactly what I see you doing to yourself. You have these ritual words that convince you that you are sinful, evil, debased, carnal, cowardly etc etc. and while they may be true, they are in fact your armour against God.

In other posts in other threads, I can see why you have sympathy with rancherfor(?). There are similarities between you. While he claims a voice told him to be physically homeless, your voice seems to keep your mind, soul and spirit in perpetual homelessness, while convincing you it is the "right" way. I would say the same voice is speaking to you both and the voice's name is Pridefullness.

The Disciples recieve the Holy ghost BEFORE Pentacost.

John 20:22 * And when he had said this, he breathed on them , and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Then Again AT Pentacost.

Acts 1:8 * But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

What is being misunderstood is that we are only sealed ONCE by the Holy Spirit at conversion. But we can be refilled afterward.

Ephesians 1:13 * In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

It is also a permanent Seal which we can not lose but only grieve.

Ephesians 4:30 * And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(01-29-2010 01:48 PM)Scotchman Wrote: [ -> ]What is being misunderstood is that we are only sealed ONCE by the Holy Spirit at conversion. But we can be refilled afterward.

What do you mean by "refilled"?

Quote:What is being misunderstood is that we are only sealed ONCE by the Holy Spirit at conversion. But we can be refilled afterward.

Ephesians 1:13 * In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

It is also a permanent Seal which we can not lose but only grieve.

Ephesians 4:30 * And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


So are these people who partook of the Holy Spirit sealed also? And if according to you Phillip, theyre sealed and cannot lose their salvation why is this passage implying they can?