SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

(12-19-2008 12:26 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]Are heaven and hell real places?

Well, there is, what appears to be an irrelevant verse in James.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all

The concept is actually hinted at in the whole Bible. One either Accepts it ALL or none of it. If the Bible tells about heaven and yet one rejects it, then why believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

we can not pick and choose our Bible. One either Takes ALL of God or shall have none of him!

Even Jesus taught a that the Scriptures were All or nothing.

John 5:46-47 (46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. (47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Besides, Jesus talked more about Heaven and Hell than any other doctrine. That is a lot to disbelieve!

Heaven is referenced 277 times in the New Testament and 414 in the Old (KJV)
Hell is referenced 23 times in the New Testament and 32 in the Old (KJV again)

Sounds like a real place. Especially when the bible only requires two or Three Witnesses to a Truth.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established


Seems like the bible goes WAY BEYOND 3 witnesses to Hell's Reality.

Besides, Jesus tells a story about it. And people do not have names in parables.

Luke 16:20-23(20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom

Heaven and hell are real just as the record of all that is written in the Scriptures is real, and inspired by God to be written.

Scotchman Wrote:Sounds like a real place. Especially when the bible only requires two or Three Witnesses to a Truth.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established

2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established

Seems like the bible goes WAY BEYOND 3 witnesses to Hell's Reality.
Besides, Jesus tells a story about it. And people do not have names in parables.

God does not require His doctrine to be confirmed by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnessess. It is HIS WORD. The verses used are taken totally out of context.

The issue of 2 or 3 witnesses was always in reference to witnesses regarding someone sinning or breaking the Law [ Deu_17:6, Deu_19:15; 1Ki_21:10;] ...No one could be put to death for an offense based on one person's word.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

There had to be 2 or 3 witnesses that confirmed the offence and we see this concept carried over into Paul addressing the sin in the Corinthian church, the other reference Scotchman has used. Paul was going the third time to address and expose the same sin issues. That Law issue is what Jesus was referencing Matthew 18:16

God is witness Himself to the doctrine of what is in the Scriptures, just as the Holy Spirit is the witness of who belongs to Him. The two or three witnesses has to do with validating what humans say and do--not what God said in His written Word.

Scotchman is saying that all biblical doctrine has to be proven by 2 or 3 other verses or is to be established by 2 or 3 witnesses, but the Scriptures are all inspired by God with 40 plus witnesses inspired by God in writing them, and 12 apostles were witnesses to Christ walking the earth.

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

When Jesus said God established His witness, it was something that only those who believed who He was, could comprehend the significance of.

John 8:12-19 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 13. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. 14. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. 15. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. 19. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

The other time about the 3 witnesses was concerning Christ and the 3 in heaven and the 3 on earth---again one would have to believe who He is to comprehend and accept that witness as true. John wrote:

1 John 5:5-11 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

The other time the concept of witness establishing something is again found in the Corinth church, where Paul was directing that those who prophesied at that time, 2 were allowed to prophesy and the 3rd was the judge of whether their prophecy was true and abided the word of God. They forget that all prophets/prophesies are subject to the Word of God, becuase the Spirit of prophecy is Jesus, who IS the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 14:26-33 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Scriptural doctrine is already established. What needs to be done is proving our beliefs to that Word. Not the other way around. Scotchmans misuse of these Scriptures is the common one that many try to apply. What many people try to do is establish opinion and interpetation of Scripture as saying that is the witness, and if someone agrees it must then be sound doctrine.

Sheep noted to me,

Quote:"On the matter of two or three witnesses in the realm of the faith movement today, prophecy is often "confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses via "words from the Lord", dreams or visions with interpretation. Having been taught in the faith movement that the Holy Spirit was doing a "new thing" and one did not want to "grieve Him", then it was accepted practice to confirm prophecy, etc with witnesses. That the prophecy contained Scripture, only made it appear to be more authentic. The problem is that these prophecies never come to pass, or in such a general application, are said to be "fulfilled". In fact, the 1000s upon 1000s of prophesies flooding the internet and churches are loaded with inaccurate Scriptural content as well as concepts and interpretations that contradict God's Word.

God has not called for 10 of 1000s of prophets. The 2 or 3 witnesses becomes the "proof", not the Word. Testing the spirit is also "confirmed" by those under that same spirit, instead of testing the fruit and the spiritual foundation of those who are on the receiving end. The audible voice is a deception which usurps the authority of the written Word, again symbolizing a "new thing" as superior, rather than upholding the inerrancy of God's Word."

People are spewing "prophecy" all over the internet--all by themselves--it was never to have been like that, according to the Scriptures.

The Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit which we are to hold to, and measure all that we believe to. It doesn't require 2 or 3 human witnesses, because it is the Spirit of God who is Truth and is no lie. When something is reiterated through the Scriptures, I believe it's because God wants us to pay attention and not miss that issue. We have a tendancy as people to have to have things repeated in order to grasp that it's meant for us.

Our doctine is to be established by studying the Scriptures in context and then bringing in any related verses that refer to the same issue. It boils down to depending fully on Him to give understanding and teach us by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

2 Timothy 2:14-16 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Colossians 2:1-10 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2. That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3. In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

2 Peter 1:1-12 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3. According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [b] 4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: [b]that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 12. Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.[/color]

I appreciate all the detail and clarification of the subtle mis-teaching that Scotchman provided. Without it, I would have just dismissed his discussion as a weak and unnecessary argument to defend a truth, and thought that he was just pretending to know his bible. ( I have had very little experience of the Charismatic movement - when I was a little girl I remember our family attending a tent meeting, and after a very short while my Dad got the whole family out of our seats and marched out of the tent- his comment that "we are not getting involved with happy-clappy nonsense!") After reading your (Vic) and Sheep's comments I can see the danger that people may be lead to apply this argument to other aspects of Christian life and be slowly but surely led astray.

There are two parts to this question, and having established and accepted that they are real rather than metaphorical or spiritual states of being of either present or future, we can turn to "...or are they mentioned just to scare us?"

I don't think they are mentioned just to scare us, but I do think that at the most obvious level they are used to remind us that we have a choice, and our choice takes us to God or away from Him: to death or to life.

Jer 21vs 8b
"Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death."

Matt 7:13 & 14
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Prov 16 vs 25
"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

If Hell engenders fear, which turns us to look at Jesus, and choose life, is that so bad? While we know the Love of God, we should not forget the Wrath of God. Too many people either forget it, ignore it or refuse to believe that God has been, can be, and will be wrathful. For them, it is easy to be led astray, easily deceived: too accepting of warm and fuzzy error and lies ( is The Shack a good example?).

Jer. 21 vs 5:
"And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath."

If we cannot accept God's wrath and Hell, do we truly believe and trust Him? Do we really respect and love him?

as real as I'm sitting on this chair