SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Hi, I haven't posted anything for awhile. I've been reading things on it but too embarrassed to post. It's really hard to get out of the HR stuff I've found. But I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.
It has to do with how Zechariah 14:16 applies to us as believers. This is one of HR teachers favorite proofs texts to tell us that we need to keep all the Jewish Feasts (they call them "dress rehersals").

I want to know the truth about all this teaching so I can share with my husband. He believes now that Judaism and Christianity are really one religion. I find myself just becoming confused and hopeless about ever getting us out of this. Maybe its just takes a long time.

(10-08-2009 10:29 PM)live4Him Wrote: [ -> ]Hi, I haven't posted anything for awhile. I've been reading things on it but too embarrassed to post. It's really hard to get out of the HR stuff I've found. But I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.
It has to do with how Zechariah 14:16 applies to us as believers. This is one of HR teachers favorite proofs texts to tell us that we need to keep all the Jewish Feasts (they call them "dress rehersals").

I want to know the truth about all this teaching so I can share with my husband. He believes now that Judaism and Christianity are really one religion. I find myself just becoming confused and hopeless about ever getting us out of this. Maybe its just takes a long time.

Oh, please do not be embarrassed to post It IS hard to get out HR. It takes time and trusting that God will open one's eyes to the truth. I just kept reading the Bible, especially the NT, because that really shows us how all that Jesus did for us on the cross really did fulfill Torah, including the feasts. The feasts were a *shadow* of things to come - which is Jesus Christ. They were a spiritual "picture", so to speak - of who Jesus was, what He would do, and how He would bring in the New Covenant through the sacrifice of Himself. So we must not only look at how He fulfilled the feasts physically, but spiritually as well. This is how we can determine that Tabernacles was already fulfilled.


Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

First of all, Zech 14:16 cannot apply to believers because Tabernacles requires a sacrifice for sin. All the feasts did - that was the *prerequisite* requirement for observance for ALL of the Mosaic Law. Without the shed blood of animals on the altar, no one can observe/keep any of the feasts. This is why the book of Hebrews is so "dangerous" to HRM and why it is either ignored or reapplied by the HR community or deleted out of the NT.

It is not necessary to "practice" or make the feasts a "dress rehearsal". Israel "practiced" and "rehearsed" for 1,500 years and could not get it "right". They disobeyed and rebelled. They were Jewish and had that perfect "Hebraic mind set" that HRM teaches. They understood perfectly why they should keep the feasts and what would happen if they didn't [cursed and dispersed]. Yet they refused to do so. It seems that their "Hebraic mind set" didn't help much. Jesus came to fulfill, to accomplish what the feasts and keeping the feasts could not do. This is why He is the perfect sacrificial Lamb - for all sin, once and for all sacrifices. No one can do more or "practice" or "rehearse" what has already been completed in perfect righteousness ["It is finished"].

Chapter 14 of Zech is interesting. I find it dynamic and awesome - for it shows the glory of Christ when He came for all men. He is Lord of all. He is the King of Glory. From Him flows the living waters. Those who do not accept Christ are "Egypt" - still in sin. Those who do accept Him will be consumed by fire and eternal torment in hell [the plague]. People come up to "Jerusalem", who is Jesus Christ, daily to worship Him and come to salvation in Him. In Christ there is no darkness, for He is the Light of the World. There are so many verses in the NT that show fulfillment of this particular feast - note the spiritual application in the verses below.

This is what Jesus said on the last day of that great feast:

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God *is* with men , and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

One last thing - Judaism and Christianity are two separate "religions". Judaism is based in the Talmud - a Rabbinical interpretation of the Scriptures that is considered superior to the Bible itself. The Talmud denies, denigrates, and blasphemes Jesus Christ. It is completely unrelated to the NT and the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Christians follow Jesus. Judaism follows the Talmud/Rabbis.

(10-09-2009 01:44 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-08-2009 10:29 PM)live4Him Wrote: [ -> ]Hi, I haven't posted anything for awhile. I've been reading things on it but too embarrassed to post. It's really hard to get out of the HR stuff I've found. But I have a question that I hope someone can help me with.
It has to do with how Zechariah 14:16 applies to us as believers. This is one of HR teachers favorite proofs texts to tell us that we need to keep all the Jewish Feasts (they call them "dress rehersals").

I want to know the truth about all this teaching so I can share with my husband. He believes now that Judaism and Christianity are really one religion. I find myself just becoming confused and hopeless about ever getting us out of this. Maybe its just takes a long time.

Oh, please do not be embarrassed to post It IS hard to get out HR. It takes time and trusting that God will open one's eyes to the truth. I just kept reading the Bible, especially the NT, because that really shows us how all that Jesus did for us on the cross really did fulfill Torah, including the feasts. The feasts were a *shadow* of things to come - which is Jesus Christ. They were a spiritual "picture", so to speak - of who Jesus was, what He would do, and how He would bring in the New Covenant through the sacrifice of Himself. So we must not only look at how He fulfilled the feasts physically, but spiritually as well. This is how we can determine that Tabernacles was already fulfilled.


Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

First of all, Zech 14:16 cannot apply to believers because Tabernacles requires a sacrifice for sin. All the feasts did - that was the *prerequisite* requirement for observance for ALL of the Mosaic Law. Without the shed blood of animals on the altar, no one can observe/keep any of the feasts. This is why the book of Hebrews is so "dangerous" to HRM and why it is either ignored or reapplied by the HR community or deleted out of the NT.

It is not necessary to "practice" or make the feasts a "dress rehearsal". Israel "practiced" and "rehearsed" for 1,500 years and could not get it "right". They disobeyed and rebelled. They were Jewish and had that perfect "Hebraic mind set" that HRM teaches. They understood perfectly why they should keep the feasts and what would happen if they didn't [cursed and dispersed]. Yet they refused to do so. It seems that their "Hebraic mind set" didn't help much. Jesus came to fulfill, to accomplish what the feasts and keeping the feasts could not do. This is why He is the perfect sacrificial Lamb - for all sin, once and for all sacrifices. No one can do more or "practice" or "rehearse" what has already been completed in perfect righteousness ["It is finished"].

Chapter 14 of Zech is interesting. I find it dynamic and awesome - for it shows the glory of Christ when He came for all men. He is Lord of all. He is the King of Glory. From Him flows the living waters. Those who do not accept Christ are "Egypt" - still in sin. Those who do accept Him will be consumed by fire and eternal torment in hell [the plague]. People come up to "Jerusalem", who is Jesus Christ, daily to worship Him and come to salvation in Him. In Christ there is no darkness, for He is the Light of the World. There are so many verses in the NT that show fulfillment of this particular feast - note the spiritual application in the verses below.

This is what Jesus said on the last day of that great feast:

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Joh 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God *is* with men , and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

One last thing - Judaism and Christianity are two separate "religions". Judaism is based in the Talmud - a Rabbinical interpretation of the Scriptures that is considered superior to the Bible itself. The Talmud denies, denigrates, and blasphemes Jesus Christ. It is completely unrelated to the NT and the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Christians follow Jesus. Judaism follows the Talmud/Rabbis.

Sheep wrecked,
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question and share all the scriptures and your insights! It seems like the real meaning of Zech. 14:16 is for all the nations to come to Jerusalem and worship the Lord Jesus (as the fulfillment of Tabernacles). All of the scriptures you included made a lot of sense.
The lines between Christianity and Judaism seem pretty blurry in the HRM! I just am having a really hard time understanding why I can see that's there's something really offbase in all of this but my husband can't.

(10-10-2009 12:06 AM)live4Him Wrote: [ -> ]The lines between Christianity and Judaism seem pretty blurry in the HRM! I just am having a really hard time understanding why I can see that's there's something really offbase in all of this but my husband can't.

Yes, the lines are blurred on purpose - to keep people from the truth. It is a spirit designed to cause people to fall away from Christ. When one is under that influence they do not see the errors. We can present the truth, but only God can remove the "blinders". I really pray that He does .......

I feel like I need to go through "de-progamming" or something! I went to the service with my husband today (against my better judgement). I read along with all the scripture the pastor used but he goes so fast that it's really hard to concentrate.

I don't trust myself to "rightly divide the word" at this point. I know the things he was teaching are wrong but I can't explain to my husband why they are. I was so upset by the time we left that I felt like crying (or yelling maybe!).

I told him that I can't go with him anymore because I just don't agree with what is being taught. And that I no longer trust the pastor.My husband said he can accept that. We agreed to "part as friends" ( we're not going to split up, though,just not go to the same church anymore)

I live in fear, however. It's been taught at this place that if you don't go along with the "Torah observance" (as they define it) then you are not as "close to the heart of God" and may not be raptured when they are-you will have to go through the tribulation (and not be at the marriage supper either).

There's a part of me that knows this is wrong but another part that is fearful that it may be right. I feel like I'm coming out of a cult-even though they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

All I know is that I can't go and even take notes anymore to try to show my husband the errors that are taught there. I pray that somehow the Holy Spirit will show him in time.

(10-10-2009 11:23 PM)live4Him Wrote: [ -> ]I feel like I need to go through "de-progamming" or something! I went to the service with my husband today (against my better judgement). I read along with all the scripture the pastor used but he goes so fast that it's really hard to concentrate.

I don't trust myself to "rightly divide the word" at this point. I know the things he was teaching are wrong but I can't explain to my husband why they are. I was so upset by the time we left that I felt like crying (or yelling maybe!).

I told him that I can't go with him anymore because I just don't agree with what is being taught. And that I no longer trust the pastor.My husband said he can accept that. We agreed to "part as friends" ( we're not going to split up, though,just not go to the same church anymore)

I live in fear, however. It's been taught at this place that if you don't go along with the "Torah observance" (as they define it) then you are not as "close to the heart of God" and may not be raptured when they are-you will have to go through the tribulation (and not be at the marriage supper either).

There's a part of me that knows this is wrong but another part that is fearful that it may be right. I feel like I'm coming out of a cult-even though they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

All I know is that I can't go and even take notes anymore to try to show my husband the errors that are taught there. I pray that somehow the Holy Spirit will show him in time.

First, let me assure you that God is able to clear the fog that happens with HR. The fact that you couldn't concentrate on what was going on--consider yourself being protected from absorbing the deception. You want to live for Christ and you are seeing the error in those teachings. Btw, many in HR say they believe in Jesus, but they are thinking another Jesus, and giving another gospel--which is why the addition of being Torah oberservant to make it to heaven.

What you are seeing firsthand is cult like fear tactics. Do you know of a Scripture that says, if you are not Torah Observant (as they define it)you are not close to the heart of God? Not one person claiming to be torah observant is or can be--because there is no temple, no priesthood and a change in the law with the New Covenant and Jesus was the final sacrifice. Therefore when they say they are keeping it--it is false and they say they are keeping bits and pieces---it violates the very law they say they keep.

Isn't the only way to God through Jesus Christ? Does it say the only way to the Father is through Torah observance--keeping the law of moses? Isn't it His promise that if you know Him--you know the Father?

John 14:6-7 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:1-5 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:10-12 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Isn't keeping the words of Jesus shown in this passage?

1 John 3:14-24 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Isn't it true that it is because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we believe Christ that we have the promise of being His?

Romans 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:4-8 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9-17 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Isn't it true that the ordinances and commandments -meaning the law of Moses_were nailed ot the cross according to the Scriptures? And Jesus fulfilled ALL the law and the prophets?

Because Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures of the "law and the prophets", being under the "law", the judgment and retribution for breaking it, are no longer physically or spiritually valid for those who know Him. Paul wrote to the Ephesians and Colossians that the law of commandments was abolished by Christ, nailed to the cross.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Wasn't it clearly stated that there was no commandment given to keep the law of Moses after Christ was crucified? Let's look at Paul and Peter first, in Galatians, and then Acts 15:

When Paul was going to the Galatians when he first started preaching the Gospel, and we see how Peter, who at that time had been preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, was living as a Gentile, until other Jews came. Meaning---Peter wasn't keeping the law of Moses, nor were Paul and Barnabas. Then he separated from them and wanted the Gentiles to live as the Jews. Paul rebuked them all for their hypocrisy and not understanding what being justified by faith in Christ meant:

Galatians 2:9-16 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

11. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15. We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

As we see, by Acts 15, there was understanding of living for Christ and not through the keeping of the law of Moses, which commandments were nailed to the cross. It's about faith.

And in point of fact, the apostles dealt with this issue specifically, and notice Peter said that there was no difference between Jews and Gentiles:

Acts15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:...

Acts 15:24-27 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25. It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26. Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Who dares to add to the Word of God and teachings given by the Holy Spirit to the apostles and therefore to us in this written Word, to overturn what was specifically stated and very clearly stated---that no one was commanded to keep the law of Moses--which includes keeping the feasts-- and those that did teach that, were subverting the souls of those they taught!

How dare anyone overturn what was stated very clearly by James and the other apostles--and add to and change the Word of God--and say we are required to keep the law of Moses which also included the feasts and sabbaths?

We are under the New Covenant, promised by God and brought in by Jesus Christ and it holds all that we need to declare Christ and be a witness for Him. And that includes referring to the OT, which always pointed to Christ --and which is FULFILLED by HIM--the Law and the prophets---all of it.

Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures of the "law and the prophets". They were about Him. For example:

Luke 4: 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. .....24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.   

Matthew 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Hebrew 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all....16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Isn't it true that none of us know how long we have on this earth? Isn't true that none of know the timing of Christ's return? No one does--except the Father? Isn't it true, that it is promised that those who belong to Christ are His---that are living for Him and because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, picking up their cross daily to do the things that please Him---because that comes from resting in Christ---not being torah observant--isn't that the criteria for being with Him. We are saved by grace---by faith given by Christ. It doesn't say we are saved by the law---in fact it says the law is not by faith. And none are justified by it.

Isn't what we are supposed to be about is the Lord's business of sharing the Gospel and being a witness for Christ? Jesus did not say go into all the world and preach Torah observance. He said go into all the world and preach the Gospel.

These people are decieved and deceiving others. They have taken the focus from Christ, to things. They have taken the focus from the Truth of what the New Covenant is--and destroyed it. They deserve no more of your time. You need to get focused on Christ and the Word. That is how you will be able to discern between good and evil, truth and error--and error is what they are full of.

It can take time to settle the truth of the Scriptures--I have heard from so many that have come out of it and have felt their spiritual lives were shattered. But ---those who have known Christ--knew and know that He was holding onto them-despite the terrible deceptive road they had chosen. And He is able and we are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. The battle is His.

(10-10-2009 11:23 PM)live4Him Wrote: [ -> ]I feel like I need to go through "de-progamming" or something! I went to the service with my husband today (against my better judgement). I read along with all the scripture the pastor used but he goes so fast that it's really hard to concentrate.

I don't trust myself to "rightly divide the word" at this point. I know the things he was teaching are wrong but I can't explain to my husband why they are. I was so upset by the time we left that I felt like crying (or yelling maybe!).

I told him that I can't go with him anymore because I just don't agree with what is being taught. And that I no longer trust the pastor.My husband said he can accept that. We agreed to "part as friends" ( we're not going to split up, though,just not go to the same church anymore)

I live in fear, however. It's been taught at this place that if you don't go along with the "Torah observance" (as they define it) then you are not as "close to the heart of God" and may not be raptured when they are-you will have to go through the tribulation (and not be at the marriage supper either).

There's a part of me that knows this is wrong but another part that is fearful that it may be right. I feel like I'm coming out of a cult-even though they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

All I know is that I can't go and even take notes anymore to try to show my husband the errors that are taught there. I pray that somehow the Holy Spirit will show him in time.

I fully understand the "fear factor". For months and months, I kept 2nd guessing law keeping. It was not until I just kept reading the NT and praying for wisdom and discernment that God began to fill me with peace in regard to not keeping Torah ----- and complete understanding of how wrong that "doctrine" is. It took time and perseverance. I was not ready to "refute" what I heard either in the beginning until I was convinced in my own heart that what the Word said is true.

I pray that God gives you the confidence and the wisdom to hear what He is saying in His Word, but also what Vic and Rose have written. They are both so knowledgeable about this movement and what the errors are. For now, I agree totally with your decision to back off and give yourself some space. When you are more solid there will be opportunities to speak the truth in love

And please take the time to read some of the other threads on keeping the law - I am sure you will find comfort in the fact that there are some of us who came out of the movement and are all the stronger for it - by the grace and mercy of God

Zechariah 11 to 14 seems to be speaking specifically to the time when the Old Covenant is broken and the New one ushered in.

However, Zech 14:16 is used by Messianics and Hebrew Roots people to justify the keeping of Sukkot.
The trouble here is that they are taking the context of Zechariah 11 to 14 esp 14 to mean somewhere in the future.
I am inclined however to follow the lead of the Gospel writer John, who saw in these chapters the fulfillment in Jesus.


Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

I see these verses as having had both literal and spiritual fulfillment .

An important thing to consider is
Did post Zechariah ( and up to the time of Jesus ) people of all nations come up to Jerusalem to worship God?
The answer of course is most definitely yes .Zechariah was giving hope to those returning from the Babylonian captivity to rebuild and restore Jerusalem.He assured them that people would flock en masse to Jerusalem to observe Sukkot.We know from the book of Acts that jews most certainly did flock to Jerusalem for the observance of the three pilgrim feasts and that they came from all over the world.

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.



In Zech 14 there was a particular mention to Egypt. At the time of Jesus Egypt was not the spiritually dark and oppressive country it is today.Many jews lived in Egypt,indeed Jesus and His parents took refuge there when fleeing from Herod) and the prophecy addressing them then is far more relevant than to us now.
This warning would serve to encourage jews in Egypt and other nations not to neglect the attendance of the three major feasts.

We see that the Gospel writer John and Jesus himself interpret parts of Zechariahs prophecies spiritually.



Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

As with all the prophets, when we read them we encounter a mixture of both literal and spiritual prophecies.Therefore I cannot take a whole prophetic book to be either JUST literal or JUST spritiual.As with all the prophets there is a mix of the two.
Phrases such as drinking from the wells of salvation cannot be taken just literally,
Are we to assume that when God speaks of withholding rain from a nation that he is merely talking about future climatological conditions?
And if we take Zech 14:16 to be literal how on earth do all the families of the earth fit into Jeruslaem?And if some from that country fail to come why should the whole country suffer from no rain?
It makes more sense to me to read that versse spiritually also.
Egypt today is aopoor shadow of what it was in the past.Being largely muslim the country has indeed seen no rain/Islam rules there and as such does not enjoy the same blessings that the other judeo Christian nations enjoy.It is largely the Christian nations today that enjoy the benefits of human rights protection a semi decent judicial system .that go throughout the world funding hospitals and schools ain less developed nations etc.Countries which are muslim/hindu aethist have a terrible track record in how they treat their women,children and each other.Think Communist Russia,Thailand,Rwanda,Sudan China etc.These countries are indeed receiving no rain til they tur to the worship of the true God and His Son.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

[b]The living waters mentioned in Zechariah and also Ezekiel 47 are not taken to be actual drinking water by Jesus ,are they? When Jesus says If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
He is not speaking of actual water is He?
So when Zechariah refers to rain among the people could he be actually referring to something other than physical rain…


Many messianics take Zech 12:10 to be applied to the time when Jesus returns and when they say Jews will en masse suddenly believe.Yet John applies this verse to Jesus when he is actually there pierced at the Cross.

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced

So that part of Zechariah was fulfilled 2000 years ago.

Jesus Himself alludes to Zech 13 when he says

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.


To Jesus the ingathering had began.The time when all nations are gathered to Christ which is behind the theme of the Feast of Tabernacles.Jesus doesn’t consider the ingathering to begin some time 2000 years plus after He spoke those words.He said the time for ingathering of the nations to Him began then.The Messianic age according to Jesus had began.He never mentioned a millennium when then the nations would come to know Him.

Joh 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
Joh 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.