SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Soon to be President of the United States, Barack Obama has asked Rick Warren of Saddleback Church and Purpose Driven fame, to give the invocation at the inauguration.

Despite an upset on both sides of the political and religious fields, Rick Warren has agreed.

I imagine that Obama simply wants what he thinks would please the christians, and Warren probably thinks it is a chance for either some publicity or what he thinks is a witness to Christ.

I really hold that even mentioning the name of God in political occasssions is blasphemy. After all they have no intention of honouring him and doing righteousness, they just want a divine rubber stamp of approval. So this is merely more empty political flummery.

BTW I do not object to God being removed from "the town square" as it were, chiefly because if we look at the behaviour of men over the centuries God was never in the town square. There was only the empty rhetoric whereby we settlers would pray God's blessings while going out and committing genocide against the natives, or pray for a blessing while doing mass murder in our so called righteous wars, or to seek blessing while we exploit the poor, etc etc etc. To remove the hypocritical invocations is marginally better than to make hypocritical invocations.

As for being angry at blasphemy appearing in public, as my anger is not based on a passionate concern for the welfare of the blasphemers, (rather it is selfish vindictiveness) it is not righteous anger and therefore it is sin. We learn to expect these things, these blasphemies, and not waste our energy fighting for or against trivia. There is such a thing as righteous anger but it is not determined by the evil of what we are angry at, otherwise Russia's anger at the Nazis after 1941 would have been righteous. No, such is determined by our love or not for the transgressors we are angry at. Therefore I claim with confidence I have never seen this in any human (except for Jesus, of course)

After all the anger of man does not work the righteousness of God (letter of James)

I wouldn't be so quick to lump the whole under the heading of wanting a rubber-stamp. There will always exist, at the very least, one good person; as shown by the example of Lot.

As for God having never been in the town square, you could not be more wrong. America itself was founded on the principles of God, with all of the founding fathers and statesmen being very strong believers in God himself and supporters of the Jewish people. A good historical book to read many of their writings is "America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations". It is a small book of only 845 pages; of course you could always read the documents of this land itself which references God constantly.

You could also reference Hyam Solomon, William E. Blackstone and what followed after the assassination of Tsar Alexander II.
You could also reference:
America protecting the Jews from the Turks to the serious point of threatening to go to war with them: We even used our warships to spirit the Jewish refugees to safety....ref: USS Tennessee, circa 1915.
Also reference Harry S Truman and Americas creation of the modern state of Israel.

America was put here and blessed for a specific purpose, and we are one of the most rapid in supporting Israel; ref who was one of the first to side with Israel and directly blame Hamas for the recent violence in Gaza? The U.S.A. December 28th.
Who provides the greatest monetary assistance to Israel, prays the most for them, and who constantly pushes new technology in their direction; THEL ring a bell?

Do our leaders goof on a constant basis, of course; land for peace being one of their worst mistakes, but I will not curse them for it: Exo 22:28 "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.

God is still with us, but it takes good people praying in intercession.

(12-29-2008 11:02 AM)grafted Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't be so quick to lump the whole under the heading of wanting a rubber-stamp. There will always exist, at the very least, one good person; as shown by the example of Lot.

As for God having never been in the town square, you could not be more wrong. America itself was founded on the principles of God, with all of the founding fathers and statesmen being very strong believers in God himself and supporters of the Jewish people. A good historical book to read many of their writings is "America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations". It is a small book of only 845 pages; of course you could always read the documents of this land itself which references God constantly.


God is still with us, but it takes good people praying in intercession.

This is historical revisionism. The relgious right are bent on rewriting American history to justify their ungodly agenda of power grabbing to make the Law of God the Law of teh Land

To start with Christianity is not principles. After all the Chinese venerate parents, humility and obedience. Are confucian principles (7 of the 10 commandments) christian? There is grace and there is law. Grace is divine intervention in those very few who find the strait and narrow way and Law condemns everyone else. And if the numbers who find the strait gate are few then they will not be enough to make a christian nation. history bears this out. There is no such thing as a christian nation, not if Jesus spoke truly, not if the gate is strait and narrow and few there are who find it


I have read a good deal of American history. take a look at liberal websites like http://www.informationclearinghouse.info and Joan Bokaer's website. They present evidence of America real historical founding, quotes from the early presidents etc

The God the founding fathers of the US believed in was the god of the Freemasons.Washington himself condemned any special partiality of one nation for another. And when Madison made a treaty with Libya in the early 1800's he prefaced it with "since we are not a christian nation".

And church attendance at the time, between those outbreaks of revivalism, was about what it was now. (I recall reading this in Richard Abanes' Endtime visions)

As for America's foundation it was not in God it was in genocide. How good is any colonial power (even my own)? Ask their victims. The original thanksgiving in 1637 was after the massachusets colony has just wiped out the local native tribe. they called it a just and glorious judgement. The Mexican war of 1846 was a cynical land grab by President Polk. Lincoln made it clear that the war between the states was not about slavery, for he would have had union witrh slavery rather than secession without it. Besides as no christian would refer to "the better angels of our nature" clearly Lincoln was no christian. A good man? ask the native americans how he defaulted on a loan to them then sent the army to wipe them out.

The puritan fathers? If you dissented from them you were expelled, if you came back once you were flogged, a second time branded or your nostril slit, a third time and you were hanged. That colony was a cult not a group of christ loving saints

Obama a good man? look at his voting record in the Senate. He is not a peace candidate, and if you do think that there is such a thing as righteous war I suggest you look at scripture, particularly James (you covet so you fight wars). The american annexation of Hawaii was pure covetousness. A law was passed banning importation of sugar from foreign parts. American sugar growers ijn Hawaii objected. So america did not quah the law they made Hawaii part of the union by annexation.

And as for the torture and murder of civilians in the philippines in 1901, or Teddy Rooseveldt's non christian diplomatic dictum of "talk softly and carry a big stick"

God was in the town square if LOVE was in the town square. Not in a country that did all the above and claimed the right to bear arms, to in fact blow away ones enemies rather than resist them not or love them. God has never been in the town square ANYWHERE. Because the world is at enmity to God, since Eden. Those bad deeds you dismiss as mere messups are in fact the fruit of the nation that show religious hypocrisy.

I myself am sickened by the hypocrisy of the fact that the politicians in my country quarrel like schoolboys, as they do the world over, and have the efrrontery to take the Name of God in vain by praying at the start of their parliamentary. particularly as they have recently legalized prostitution and banned smacking (this is New Zealand, 21st century)

Take a look at a hostile leftist website that in accordance with the usual left drivel, harping on small items, overlooking the whole or dismissing them outright, (since it doesn't fit their agenda,) and creating straw dogs to terry while claiming their way is right and just? Remind when the last time any leftist agenda didn't involve destruction of morals, values, in many cases large portions of the Bible and Gods word itself?

Stalin would be proud.


You want to witness attempts at historical re-writes, visit the left and enjoy the bovine diatribe they shovel by the metric ton. If the D.U. and their lackeys had their way, the U.S. would be cursed of God faster than a bolt of lightning, and neither the modern state of Israel, nor the majority of the Jews living there would exist, but let's not get side tracked that history itself dictates otherwise, even though that's totally against the lefts agenda.

The fact that many of the founders were Freemasons is not a hidden fact, but to many nut-job conspiracy idiots it is a chance to sell fear, or they are the devil books, etc, etc, etc, without any real clue as to what takes place behind the closed doors -- nor would they ever be allowed to know because they are NUTS, and only people of honor, integrity, and those who believe in God are allowed to walk through that door, provided they have been invited to do so, and to be invited to do so by a member = you have shown that you are a good, decent, caring person who does believe strongly in God.
Of course that doesn't fit with the leftist nut-job, tinfoil hat wearing agenda, or the ad astra nasuem books they push down weak minded people's throats, who will believe just about anything they
don't have any real understanding of, and attack it just as viciously; cue the leftist tin-foil hat, pray to Marx crowd.

Guess what skimpy, the God of the Freemasons is the same God of the Israelite, Christian, and that of the Founding Fathers. He is the same God of the majority of the people here, and he will be the same God tomorrow for he doesn't change. Don't like it, tough luck, no one is going to change that to meet with the leftist agenda, and the left will, and does hate them and everyone else who doesn't follow their little twisted delusional agenda. Need proof, watch the news, follow their bovine diatribe, follow their terrorist actions; ref: throwing burning powder at people during a political rally (RNC 2008), free looting, attacking, and burning of establishments, (WTO Seattle), disruption of public services, (San Fran, primarily Code Pink and the Berkley crowd). We could carry this to on to near infinity.

Want to read more of their idiocy, simply Google the Democratic Underground, their main source of news and inspiration. You would enjoy it, the majority here will be outraged or gagging over a toilet before the day is out.

If these are the people you follow and listen to, then we have nothing more to discuss, and your path is clearly not in tune with that of anything Christian, Judaic, or Morale.

(12-29-2008 05:59 PM)grafted Wrote: [ -> ]Take a look at a hostile leftist website that in accordance with the usual left drivel, harping on small items, overlooking the whole or dismissing them outright, (since it doesn't fit their agenda,) and creating straw dogs to terry while claiming their way is right and just? Remind when the last time any leftist agenda didn't involve destruction of morals, values, in many cases large portions of the Bible and Gods word itself?

Guess what skimpy, the God of the Freemasons is the same God of the Israelite, Christian, and that of the Founding Fathers. He is the same God of the majority of the people here, and he will be the same God tomorrow for he doesn't change. Don't like it, tough luck, no one is going to change that to meet with the leftist agenda, and the left will, and does hate them and everyone else who doesn't follow their little twisted delusional agenda. Need proof, watch the news, follow their bovine diatribe, follow their terrorist actions; ref: throwing burning powder at people during a political rally (RNC 2008), free looting, attacking, and burning of establishments, (WTO Seattle), disruption of public services, (San Fran, primarily Code Pink and the Berkley crowd). We could carry this to on to near infinity

If these are the people you follow and listen to, then we have nothing more to discuss, and your path is clearly not in tune with that of anything Christian, Judaic, or Morale.

Reality coffee time :food-smiley-001:

Don't be so quick to jump on the "God Bless America" boat. Stref has a much more correct view of history than Americans are taught in school. We been sold a bill of goods. Best you listen to someone who has done their homework

I will bow out of the discussion, for the moment - I don't want this to become a knock down fight y'all :punch:

ps: the masons are satanic - where ya been all this time?

(12-29-2008 05:59 PM)grafted Wrote: [ -> ]Take a look at a hostile leftist website that in accordance with the usual left drivel, harping on small items, overlooking the whole or dismissing them outright,.

Your anger is unrighteous. Clearly I have offended one of your idols, namely your country. This is to be expected. You have no intertest in history or jistice, you name call and rant, ignoring every point made. I learn not to expect any defense of bible doctrine here, for clearly to the likes of you it is only a crime if the other felllow does it. When Nazis herd jews into a ghetto it is an outrafe. When Jews do it to the people of
gaza it is laudable. At this you set the law of God to no account.

Your rant is predictable. But do not think that in applying the Word of God here that I regard your religion as worth anything. JAmes is clear on this

I sugget you actually read the prophets instead of gazing at their text in order to feel you are a good man

THE bible says that there aren't any good people.

---

According to the Bible the nations of the world are enemies of God.

All of them.

Do you have any rational and theological justification for the idea that a country of the world is or ever was godly or even could be? particularly when nations are to be judged by their deeds as people are.

If America were in the world but not of it then there would nerver have been slavery. You did owe that the constutional convention of circa 1787 could not resolve this isse and nearly broke up. And the Mexican war of 1846 I get from professional historians, not left wing web sites.


In fact christians are no useless at reporting history that i no longer trust them, as a rule. The slanderous nonsense spread about catholicism is a case in point.

What is the carnal mind, what is the fruit of the flesh, and what does the law of God command concerning social justice? those who walk in the flesh cannot submit, as their mind is set on the flesh. strait and narrow is the gate and few there are to find it. the logical conclusion of these two scriptures is obvious. No nation was ever christian.

They were nominal at best. particularly where the punishment for treason was to be hanged untill half sufocated, castrated, disembowelled, then to have hour heart cut out and showed to you while you were stilll conscious. then you were cut into pieces, 4 big pieces which were par boiled and and were nailed to city walls as a warning to other.

And heretics were burnt at the stake, often appealing to St Augustine who actually advocated state persecution of heretics. He justified it by twisting scripture. I did not get this from a left wing web site either, but from a professional historians history of the Late Roman Empire

this savagery is proof of a christian nation?

Here i have quoted scripture, not left wing web sites. you may decline to answer these to me but you ignore scripture to your peril as regards the wrath of ALmighty God, the Holy and Terrible

And why this irrational reaction claiming that because the FAR left were murderous marxists, that the Right wing were godly. After all the most vigourous anti communists in history were the nazis. And McCarthyism was malevolent

as ALL the nations rage against God and devise a vain thing (Psalm 2) then clearly ALL the politics of man is evil. not just the left wing.

Read Rallston Saul's "Voltaire's Bastards". do you know who resisted a municiple rubbish collection? The rich.

And as wealth leads to the deceitfulness of riches you can expect the rich to oppress the poor. And as the poor are no more godly than the rich, they will respond to the evil of the sweatshops wherein they died prematurely of exhaustion in a less than godly fashion. So what do the rich do? they look at the ungodly response of the labouring poor and feel justified in continuing their crimes. Read some history and find out that this is true. with 16 hour workdays over 6 day weeks labourers were dead by 40 in their industrial slums.

Read the prophets and hear how they ferociously condemned expllitatiojn of the poor by the rich and i quote those who ignore the cry of the poor will cry to the lord and be ignored.

Given the outrage of the response to Hurican Katrina america is in fact ripe for judgement, to be cursed by God. And that is merely the tip of the Iceberg. I am not the one who first said that if god does not judge america he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. It may have been Dave Wilkerson

No nation is the last great hope of either israel or the gospel. Last time i read scripture it was God who was the protector of his people, not a nation, whether it be England, America or even Russia which tried to think it was the guardian of christian faith in the 16th century. For Israel to trust America is in fact directly akin to ancient israel trusting egypt, which God forbade.

And let us not be naive as to why American geopolitics is interested in the Middle East. Three letters spelling O I L

I suggest your prayerfully consider the logic of your opinions in the light of the Bible. If they indicate heresy and idolatry this will harm unless repented of. For god is not mocked, what a man sows he will reap.

I submit that a love of one's country if not coupled by love of your neighbour it is idolatry. And as for who our neighbour is I recommend you see the Parable of the Samaritan then understand that the Jews viewed Samaritans as half-breed scum.

I have offered a reasonsed response. Feel free to do likewise

Grace is divine intervention in those very few who find the strait and narrow way and Law condemns everyone else.

So does this mean that Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Solomon, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Job, Ruth, Malachi, Jonah, David are done for? They were under the "Law" however David is known as a "man after God's own heart", Noah found favor in God's eyes he was righteous and blameless among his contemporaries and walked with God. It would seem that "Grace" has always been and not something instituted by the New Testament. Unless someone is going to tell me that Noah, or Abraham, or any of the others listed above are somehow going to be left out.

(12-29-2008 08:17 PM)carl37 Wrote: [ -> ]Grace is divine intervention in those very few who find the strait and narrow way and Law condemns everyone else.

So does this mean that Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Solomon, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Job, Ruth, Malachi, Jonah, David are done for? They were under the "Law" however David is known as a "man after God's own heart", Noah found favor in God's eyes he was righteous and blameless among his contemporaries and walked with God. It would seem that "Grace" has always been and not something instituted by the New Testament. Unless someone is going to tell me that Noah, or Abraham, or any of the others listed above are somehow going to be left out.

Moses and Abraham done for ? Of course not. But as for Adam and Eve who klnows? Not one single word in Scripture indicates that they ever repented or believed

Abraham believed God and he was accounted righteous. Paul mentioned this to make it clear that Abraham was saved by Grace through faith. So were Noah and prophets. As for being under the Law Paul said that the LAw was not given before Moses so they were not under Law, but that those before the Law would be lost without reference to it. I never claimed that Grace was something instituted in the NT, if people are saved it was only ever by grace though faith. This was the purpose oif Paul writing as he did.

My point still stands, in fact your examples here are examples of my point, not refutations of it. If Noah etc walked with God it took His Divine intervention to them so that they could. This was all of grace.

Those few who found grace include the OT saints, the p[romise of the OT is that what was given to the prophets would be given to all believers

Beautifully put! I have a question though. What about Enoch?