SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Xenonamandar Jegahusiee Singh (Joseph Prince).
I have been doing a lot of research into his name change.
According to en.wikipedia.org

Quote:He was one of the young pioneers who founded the church (New Creation Church) in 1983.

Joseph Prince, the son of a Sikh priest of Indian origin and a Chinese mother

The church was founded in 1983.Joseph Prince was appointed as the senior pastor of the church in 1990.

Quote:Sikhism

Those in the Sikh faith adopt a new last name upon baptism into the Khalsa.Men adopt thelast name Singh, while women adopt the last name Kaur.
The Sikhs adopted the name Singh in 1699 during the Birth of the Khalsa.

His father was Sikh but he did not automatically become Sikh just because his dad was.

From sikhs.org/khalsa.htm

Quote:The Khalsa baptism ceremony is undertaken as part of ones own personal,
spiritual evolution when the initiate is ready to fully live up to the high expectations of Guru Gobind Singh.

Xenonamandar JegahusieeSingh(Joseph Prince)
When he was baptism into the Khalsa he was given the name Xenonamandar Jegahusiee Singh

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalsa

Quote:Khālsā (Punjabi: ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ (Gurmukhi), خالصہ (Shahmukhi); [xaːlsaː]) refers to one who has taken the step to live by the requirements of the Sikh religion,
receiving Amrit (Sikh Baptism) in formal ceremony and continues to live the requirements of Sikh lifestyle and practice. The Khalsa was founded on March 30, 1699, by Siri Guru Gobind Singh

They founded the New Creation Church in 1983.So he kept his Sikh name until just before he was appointed senior pastor in 1990.

Now I am going to speculate as to why he changed his name.He didn't seem to mind having that Sikh name until he was about to be made senior pastor.
Think about it.How would it look for a senior pastor of a charismatic christian church to have a Sikh name?

If he was a Sikh that converted to Christianity why did it take him 6 years to decide to change his Sikh name?
He founded a christian church in 1983 while still using his Sikh name.
According to wikipedia they had only 25 members.He changed his Sikh name and their membership exploded.
In that area,with his name being Xenonamandar Jegahusiee Singh they probably thought it a Gurdwara(Sikh church).He gets rid of that Sikh name and
WHAMO people start going to his church and he is rich and famous.
Is Joseph Prince a Sikh in Christian clothing?His own actions leave me wondering.


I love God so much and I praise and thank Him for leading me to the truth!
God is so Good!

Well Done!! Lois!

Because wikipedia is not always reliable but based on whatever people put into it, I tried to find the source document to confirm the information concerning his father being a Sikh priest, etc. I finally found an online copy of the newspaper article which was sourced for that information. It does not identify the 'sikh' religion. http://www.tmc.org.my/documents/pjp.pdf

In saying that, the name change and such does make sense from that light. :

The Straits Times published a special edition on the 17th of July 2010 called Rise of the Megachurches,Gospel & Glitz.
A quote from ANNUAL REPORT OF THE SIKH ADVISORY BOARD FOR THE PERIOD NOVEMBER 2009 – OCTOBER 2010
kirtanshop.com/sab/sab_5th_annual_report.pdf
Page 6

Quote:10.1 An article in the Straits Times of 17 July 2010 on Mega Churches in Singapore
included references toPastor Joseph Princefrom the New Creation Church
referring to his father as “an often drunk Sikh priest”.This description of his
father upset and angered Sikh leaders and members of the community and a
number of complaints were received by the Board. The Board, after
consulting some Sikh leaders, including MP Inderjit Singh and former MP
Davinder Singh sent a letter to the Editor of the Straits Times effectively
stating that by publishing the comments of Pastor Joseph Prince in that
manner, the paper had displayed an unacceptable disregard for minority
religions in Singapore that amounted to a dereliction of its duty to uphold the
multi racial and religious fabric in our society. The Editor acknowledged the
mistake made in publishing the comments in the manner in which they
appeared and agreed to publish the Board’s letter in the Straits Times edition
of 27 July 2010 with an apology from the paper to go along with it. This was
duly done.

The Sikh Advisory Board as well as many other Sikhs were upset that the news paper published that Joseph Prince's father was
“an often drunk Sikh priest”,because they felt it made Sikhs out to be drunkards and irresponsible fathers.

Whether or not his father was a Sikh priest does not even matter.Joseph Prince's old name Xenonamandar Jegahusiee Singh
is a Sikh name and he kept his Sikh religious name even while founding a so called christian church.He even kept his Sikh religious name for
6 or 7 YEARS after founding a so called christian church.In this article Vic found here http://www.tmc.org.my/documents/pjp.pdf
Says

Quote:Joseph Prince,by the way,was a name he adopted when he was working as an IT consultant before he became a full-time pastor.
"I saw in the Bible that everyone that God raised,He changed their names."

So he didn't change his name because he turned from his Sikh religious beliefs and fully embraced Christianity?


He also does not believe in fasting.He speaks against it in Destined to Reign on page 275 and 276
He refers to this verse
Mar 9:29 And He said to them, "This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer."
and then says

Quote:But do you know that in the original Greek text,the word "fasting" does not appear in that verse?
It was added by the translators!
And if you look at the NASB and the NIV translations,you won't find that word"fasting" in that verse.

(btw I have the link for this if someone wants it it is really very long that is why I'm not posting the whole thing)

That sounds like he is anti KJV to me and you know who else does not believe in fasting?
Sihks
They also believe that all paths lead to God.(Religious Pluralism)
From realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1248308356&ucat=7

Quote:The Sikh religion rejects all rituals, superstitions and routine practices like fasting and pilgrimage,
animal sacrifice, omens and austerities.

There are many,many bible verses that speak of fasting even in the NASB and NIV translations.
I think fasting is a personal thing between a person and God.
I think we have freewill to fast or not to fast.
Why would a person speak against something that Jesus himself did?

Act_14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

(NIV) Mat 4:2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
(NASB) Mat 4:2 And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He [fn]then became hungry.

I agree with you Vic,The bottom line is that he teaches contrary to to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I to come to the conclusion after many hours of researching images that his belt buckle is of the hindu/buddhist, swastika family.
His is unusual and not a perfect match to anything that I can find,which makes me wonder if he had it custom made.

The book Destine to Rein I have been reading from here,
http://books.google.com/books?id=w8vehQU...&q&f=false

I didn't want to post the whole link before because it is so long but since I am getting a lot of my info from his book I thought I should probably go ahead and post the link.

I have seen on many web sites where people accuse Mr Prince of preaching that there is no need for repentance but they never show where they have gotten their info from.
There seems to be a video of him preaching/teaching that people do not need repentance but just when I think I have found that video,it has been taken down.
I might just have to force myself to listen to all the videos they have of him on you tube to find out which one it is,so I can hear it for myself.
In what I have read so far he doesn't say this out right or in a plain matter of fact way,he is very cunning in that he doesn't fully commit to his stance on this but leaves it up to the
reader to draw their own conclusion.He also implies that if a person feels bad,guilty,or condemned of their sins,even present sins that it is the devil making them feel that way.(Pages 53/54 Paraphrasing)

The Bible says we can be convicted by or own conscience
Joh_8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Jesus said The Holy Spirit reproves
Joh_16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Reprove
G1651
ἐλέγχω
elegchō
el-eng'-kho
Of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

Think about it.The devil doesn't convict you of sin.He wants you to keep sinning and move further away from God.

From his book Destine to Rein page 14 Btw He has given very little actual scriptural references in this book.

Quote:When the devil comes to accuse you with the law and shows you how you have fallen short,or failed,all you have to do is point
to the payment that Jesus made on the cross.

Where in the bible does it say that the devil will come to us and accuse us of the law?
The Bible says
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
"which accused them before our God day and night." ..not comes to us personally to accuse us.

He uses the terms "fallen short" and "failed" instead of sin or sinned.He says all you have to do is "point".REALLY?!?
You don't have to repent or confess anything?..just "point" according to him.

On page 15 he says

Quote:Even if he[the devil] uses the law and points to your sins today,you can point to the cross of Jesus

Again,where in the Bible does it say that the devil does this and again no repenting or confessing of anything just "point"?

Page 283

Quote:What about repentance then?
The word "repentance" is metanoia in the Greek,which means to change one's mind.
So change your mind and simply believe that Jesus alone is our propitiation for our sin!

So he has completely taken repentance out of the equation here in one fell swoop.
He is encouraging people to stay in sin by taking repentance and confession of sins out of the equation.
He is encouraging people to ignore their own conscience and to ignore the reprove of the Holy Spirit..saying it's the devil come to accuse you.
Eph_5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. ( to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.)
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Repentance means so much more than just simply,nonchalantly changing your mind.
The Bible says (KJV)
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness,and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Jesus said
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Jesus said,"repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations"

Joseph Prince is preaching the feel good message of HIS,gospel of grace, without the repentance,confession or conviction of sins.
How can there be grace unless there is repentance,confession or conviction of sins?
Salvation is impossible without repentance.
Repentance is not just "changing your mind" but changing your heart.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
That means preach even like He(Jesus)preached to.
Christ began His ministry with a call to "repentance,"
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Joe says all we have to do is "point"
The Bible says
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The belt buckle is a swastika/fylfot with an equidistant cross (Maltese cross?) in the middle of it. It looks as though a yin-yang was crossed perpendicularly with another yin-yang to form the swastika. How can he not know the symbol is occultic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika (several of the swastikas in this article are a lot like the belt buckle)

(12-26-2011 12:15 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-25-2011 07:23 PM)Lois Wrote: [ -> ]I have never heard of this guy before so I thought I would check him out first hand.
One of the first things I noticed is there are giant pictures of him all over his web site.
So is a person's focus supposed to be on him or God?A person might say,Well it's his web site
Why shouldn't there be pictures of him on it?Really?
Isn't it supposed to be God's web site? and all about God?

--Quote From charismamag.com on his web site, boldening added by me--

Quote:Prince’s messages on the grace of God have influenced worship leaders too.
Grammy-winning musician Israel Houghton says the song
“I Receive” from his latest album, The Power of One,
was conceived after he heard Prince teach on God’s grace.
Houghton wrote it with Peter Wilson, worship pastor of Hillsong Church London,
and the two men still affectionately call it the “Joseph Prince song.”

So they are writing and singing songs of worship to this guy disguised as songs for God.
I had never heard this song so I listened to it on you tube.It is a nice song to bad they wrote it to worship Joseph Prince and not God.
This is another good reason why you should know where the music you listen to is coming from..even so called christian music has wolves in sheep's clothing.

As I was looking around on his site there is one great big picture of him wearing a belt buckle in one of his pdf files.
I'm going to try to see if I can get that pic and post it.
HA..I got it! I had to take a screen shot of the pdf picture.My screen shot program isn't very good but you can still see
everything clearly.
This is the whole picture of Joseph Prince and his very interesting belt buckle.


Just one of his belt buckle


These screen shots were taken by me.I did zoom in and out on the picture and crop the picture.
I did not do anything to change or alter this picture in any way, shape or form.This is the belt buckle he is wearing.
What is it?What does it mean? I personally do not know but I will look into it.
I also noticed while doing an image search on him that 99.9% of the pictures of him out there
he is cut off at the waist so you can't see his belt buckle[s].Maybe he enjoys wearing these occult looking buckles so they try to
hide them from everyone by cutting all his pictures off at the waist??I'm only speculating..but it does seem odd to me.

It's a form of a triskele-but not exactly a triskele-- and actually you can read a bit about that on Rico Cortes thread starting at page 4 post 40 , pg 5, pg 6 to post 57 > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.p...375&page=4

I also have some research on Triskeles, here >
http://www.seekgod.ca/topicsymbols.htm#inroads > http://www.seekgod.ca/warning.htm

There is something different about princes...I need to research it more and hopefully YYZ will recognise it's shape and symbols.

And yes the whole issue of the myriad of images of prince only suggests focus on him not Christ. I think he presents another gospel and another Jesus. Will see if we can find the symbolism.

Thought I would comment here since I'm still rather new and have to tack on to previous threads to get my post count up.

I read of someone who after reading a book my Joseph Prince, "Destined To Reign"(can't find the post now) caused them to leave the Messianic movement she was involved in. I specifically bought the book to give to my ex girlfriend who is caught up in the movement in hopes this might stir something in her.

But anyway I gotta say after reading the book my spidey senses didn't go off at all. Matter of fact I thought it was well written and he brought out some VERY good stuff about Grace, Faith as well as some of the Law stuff that we see with the HR/Messianics. I had never heard of this guy before I read the above mentioned thread post.

I do remember seeing him on tv while channel surfing but never listened to him. I have never read or listened to him before reading this book. So although there might be other things that one needs to be wary of I think this particular book is extremely useful in spreading the truths of the Gospel. I wouldn't hesitate recommending this book to be read by EVERY Believer. Matter of fact I have ordered several copies of the book to loan to friends for them to read. It is that excellent. In my opinion. ;) Again I am talking about this specific book. And I can clearly see where what he has to say might very well speak directly to those in the HR movement and cause them to question what they have heard and believe.

I will admit however that I have been a "Faith" guy from way back. I have read so many books from Kenneth Hagin(not Jr). I will have to disagree with some of the things posted about him specifically and his Faith message. I DO NOT for one second believe he denies the deity of Christ.

His stuff is well written but there is very little gospel in it.If you look over your book again carefully how much actual scripture is in it?
You will find that it is mostly his commentary,his view point,his opinion and very little gospel.A person's speculation is not the gospel.It may sound good or make you feel good,give you goosebumps but it is not the gospel.
I have found his teachings to be contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

(03-16-2012 06:52 PM)Bama Wrote: [ -> ]Thought I would comment here since I'm still rather new and have to tack on to previous threads to get my post count up.

I read of someone who after reading a book my Joseph Prince, "Destined To Reign"(can't find the post now) caused them to leave the Messianic movement she was involved in. I specifically bought the book to give to my ex girlfriend who is caught up in the movement in hopes this might stir something in her.

But anyway I gotta say after reading the book my spidey senses didn't go off at all. Matter of fact I thought it was well written and he brought out some VERY good stuff about Grace, Faith as well as some of the Law stuff that we see with the HR/Messianics. I had never heard of this guy before I read the above mentioned thread post.

I do remember seeing him on tv while channel surfing but never listened to him. I have never read or listened to him before reading this book. So although there might be other things that one needs to be wary of I think this particular book is extremely useful in spreading the truths of the Gospel. I wouldn't hesitate recommending this book to be read by EVERY Believer. Matter of fact I have ordered several copies of the book to loan to friends for them to read. It is that excellent. In my opinion. ;) Again I am talking about this specific book. And I can clearly see where what he has to say might very well speak directly to those in the HR movement and cause them to question what they have heard and believe.

I will admit however that I have been a "Faith" guy from way back. I have read so many books from Kenneth Hagin(not Jr). I will have to disagree with some of the things posted about him specifically and his Faith message. I DO NOT for one second believe he denies the deity of Christ.

Hi Bama,

I think you might consider the issue of 'a little leaven'. Please consider reading this thread in the apologetics section > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=369

The problem with combining truth and error, the scraps of truth are the carrot to draw people into the error. Simply put, many people can walk some of the walk, but they can't maintain it when they are put to the test of the Scriptures. Just because someone speaks about grace---because it became a controversial issue with Joseph, therefore not a surprise he wrote a book to sell about it---doesn't mean it is sound nor are the rest of his teachings sound. As Lois pointed out---it's him talking about it, his opinion, not backed up with Scripture. If it's sound, it should be loaded with Scriptures showing what GOD said through His Word.

How much leaven does Scripture allow? What did Jesus say? If one is a false teacher---should they be followed because they say something correct here and there or use buzz words to make it sound alright? or somewhat correct? Aren't the Scriptures clear themselves?

Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Word/faith are errant teachings, including Hagin's teachings about being 'little gods'. There's a thread about that here > http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=602

You aren't going to help others by compromising Scriptural truths for partial truths. You are not going to help others by pointing to books written by men shown to be teaching contrary to Scripture, even if they say something that might be alright, and the next statement is false. HR is loaded with false doctrine and twisting of the Scriptures. You need to understand the Scriptural issues in order to refute them according to the Scriptures. Pointing people seduced by false doctrine to another false teacher isn't helping anyone. It's merely giving itching ears what they want to hear. Point to the Scriptures and Christ, then you might help pull someone from the error.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

You will help others by pointing to Christ alone and the Scriptures for doctrine. All that we believe must stand the test of Scripture---that is where our sound doctrine must come from. Prove all things...to the Scriptures, then you can actually help others. Because it is fully about Christ and His Word.

2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

1 Corinthians 2:4-15 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Ephesians 2:18-22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Romans 10:8-17 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Vic

Rather than requoting your whole post I'll just snip it. Suffice to say that I believe I have read and listened to Brother Kenneth Hagin probably more than anyone else here. Of all the teachings I have heard and read from him I have NEVER felt I could be as "little gods". That thought never occurred to me. Does that mean I am immune, not easily persuaded or perhaps he is correct? Or maybe he never said or implied that. Does this mean I am infallible? Of course not?

And as far as leaven that can work both ways. False leaven pronounced improperly can just as easily kill someones beliefs just as easily. For instance if one does not believe in Tongues or Healing for today, anyone that sees this stuff might be leary of all from them. So which was is that leaven gonna go now? Although I consider myself a follower of the Faith movement I don't just blindly follow anyone who claims or appears to use the same mantra. I do not care for Benny Hinn. I believe he is misusing the gifts as well as many others. I was just listening to a teaching by Charles Capps yesterday. I believe he has it correct also.

Should we ignore sheep wrecked because she was once caught up in the HR stuff? Surely not. She has some valuable insight into their teachings. But I think in regards to the Faith movement, more specifically toward Kenneth Hagin, I think there are some here that are mistaken. Do some abuse their gifts? Yes, they surely do.

The Holy Spirit is supposed to help us discern these things. Why is it that some seem to discern some things while others do not? We use others to help us here. Whether is be sites like your or people like Joseph Prince that help us interpret the meaning of scripture. Even Jesus had to explain to the Apostles some of the things he said. Some scripture is clear while some is not so clear and must be revealed though other means. And FWIW I thought the book included plenty of scriptural references to what Joseph was speaking about. Scripture in and of itself does not necessarily mean we get the complete picture. Just read the Old Testament without any knowledge of the info in the New and you see what I mean. I/You could post scripture after scripture that helps make ones own point.

How about this:
Matthew 5:31-32(NASB)
31 “It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Do you know any men who have married a divorced woman? This scripture from Jesus' own words sure appear to mean that she is NOT to get married again. I just went though this with an ex girlfriend(Law keeper). I know there are other scriptures on this subject but just wanted to point out how clear this one scripture makes it seem. But surely the intent is not to mean as a Christian we can never get married again. We can save the arguments for another thread. ;)

Here is something that Prince brought out in his book I had never noticed before:

Revelation 3:14-17(NASB)
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

He thinks this has to do with people who mix Law and Grace. He would rather they either be cold or hot(Law or Grace) rather than mixing the two which of course the New Testament speaks against.

I will be reading this book again however this time I will be looking at it with more of a critical eye. I will be specifically looking for those things which take me away from the blood of Jesus. If I find none then what am I supposed to glean from that? Either I am missing it or someone else is!

But hey we could all be wrong and find out the law keepers have been correct all along! lol NOT!! ;)

All in all I am more confused by all this. I have several VERY Faithful(faithful to the Word) friends whom I consider VERY Godly and spiritual that have read this book as well and thought it was excellent too.

I will say that for the last 30 or so years my little discerner has been working pretty well in regards to the spiritual world. At least in picking out those in the ministry that appear to be leaning the wrong way.

Let's just say we're gonna disagree on some things but Love in Christ will never fail.