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Gen 44:14 And Judah and his brethren came to Joseph's house; for he [was] yet there: and they fell before him on the ground.
Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed [is] this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?

The subsequent appearance of that word is in

1 Samuel 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee.

"Divination" cannot possibly mean the same thing in both of these verses--or does it?

Joseph's prophecies were from God. I used to do Tarot and some runic divination and those occultic practices are straight out of hell. I had a familiar, too. What does the word "divine" mean as Joseph used it?

(12-05-2009 12:44 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: [ -> ]Gen 44:14 And Judah and his brethren came to Joseph's house; for he [was] yet there: and they fell before him on the ground.
Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed [is] this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?

The subsequent appearance of that word is in

1 Samuel 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me [him] up, whom I shall name unto thee.

"Divination" cannot possibly mean the same thing in both of these verses--or does it?

Joseph's prophecies were from God. I used to do Tarot and some runic divination and those occultic practices are straight out of hell. I had a familiar, too. What does the word "divine" mean as Joseph used it?

Very interesting ...

I did a little concordance searching, and indeed, the same word is used. Unfortunately, Joseph did practice divination - probably because of his training in Egypt. He was appointed to a very high position and it was common practice to be involved with magic. It was not right, but I believe it was God's grace that protected Joseph. As we know, God did give Joseph interpretations of dreams so that he could advance in the kingdom of Egypt. As we know, it was his position that eventually saved his brothers and father during the time of famine, so that the promise of Abraham would continue to be fulfilled.

I was thinking about this in relation to other OT saints, because there were others who sinned against God by their practices, yet it appears God was merciful and gracious. Now that we have the indwelt Holy Spirit and the written Word of God, there is no longer an excuse for doing things that He considers sin - like the occult, magic, divination, nemocracy, and mysticism.

(12-06-2009 04:04 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]Very interesting ...

I did a little concordance searching, and indeed, the same word is used. Unfortunately, Joseph did practice divination - probably because of his training in Egypt. He was appointed to a very high position and it was common practice to be involved with magic. It was not right, but I believe it was God's grace that protected Joseph. As we know, God did give Joseph interpretations of dreams so that he could advance in the kingdom of Egypt. As we know, it was his position that eventually saved his brothers and father during the time of famine, so that the promise of Abraham would continue to be fulfilled.

I was thinking about this in relation to other OT saints, because there were others who sinned against God by their practices, yet it appears God was merciful and gracious. Now that we have the indwelt Holy Spirit and the written Word of God, there is no longer an excuse for doing things that He considers sin - like the occult, magic, divination, nemocracy, and mysticism.

I have often thought the same thing--how God changed the hearts of murderers and even entrusted them with transcribing the Word. Moses, David, Solomon with his Pagan wives and child sacrifice, Paul persecuting believers, etc.

Joseph himself implied that he was able to do divination: Did he mean, tell the future?

Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed [is] this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?

and his servants claimed that he actually did do divination: Did they actually see him, or just hear that he was able to tell the future?

Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.

We cannot say dogmatically whether he did or did not divine according to the occult. Divining means to tell the future and in that strict sense, Joseph did interpret dreams by God that foretold the future.

He also may have been trying to continue his deception to his brothers. Once again, we know that he was able to interpret dreams and the interpretations came from God which told the future. There is no example at all in Genesis of Joseph actually divining (foretelling the future) apart from God.

The prophet Daniel was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers".
Dan 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;

People could conclude from this, that Daniel was involved in the occult.

Personally, I don't see any evidence that Joseph divined according to occultic practices.

(12-07-2009 12:22 AM)heb13-13 Wrote: [ -> ]Joseph himself implied that he was able to do divination: Did he mean, tell the future?

Gen 44:15 And Joseph said unto them, What deed [is] this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?

and his servants claimed that he actually did do divination: Did they actually see him, or just hear that he was able to tell the future?

Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.

We cannot say dogmatically whether he did or did not divine according to the occult. Divining means to tell the future and in that strict sense, Joseph did interpret dreams by God that foretold the future.

He also may have been trying to continue his deception to his brothers. Once again, we know that he was able to interpret dreams and the interpretations came from God which told the future. There is no example at all in Genesis of Joseph actually divining (foretelling the future) apart from God.

The prophet Daniel was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers".
Dan 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;

People could conclude from this, that Daniel was involved in the occult.

Personally, I don't see any evidence that Joseph divined according to occultic practices.

Going back to the beginning of Gen 44

Gen 44:2 And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the word that Joseph had spoken.
Gen 44:3 As soon as the morning was light, the men were sent away, they and their asses.
Gen 44:4 And when they were gone out of the city, and not yet far off, Joseph said unto his steward, Up, follow after the men; and when thou dost overtake them, say unto them, Wherefore have ye rewarded evil for good?
Gen 44:5 Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? [H5172]ye have done evil in so doing.


H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
BDB Definition:
1) to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to practice divination
1a2) to observe the signs or omens

Joseph was reading signs in his cup of wine. That is divination.

It seems to me that sometimes people have an unrealistic view of the patriarchs and the people used by God in the Bible.
They wreent the paragons of virtue that some make them out to be and instead all were fallible and sinners just like we were and involved in a fallen world full of paganism and idolatry.

Yes Daniel was in charge of all the occultic and pagan Babylonian occult workers.Do we hear Daniel denouncing them all as a bunch of idol worshippers and fleeing away from being in charge of them? No instead he submits to God's will as it were and God uses him right where he is at.

Jacob and Rachel lived with Laban and Jacob served him all those years.Do we hear any mention of Jacob denouncing all the idols and saying he wouldnt marry Rachel since her father was an idol worshipper? No, we don't.Additionally by the time Jacob leaves Laban Rachel takes the idols with her!! For what reason we cannot be sure but the fact is that I don't see in Scripture any outright condemnation of these idols.
I am not for a second condoning idolatry but just pointing out that the people chosen by God lived in a fallen world where the people around them were not worshipping the God of Israel and were involved in occultic practices.Yet they remained in those situations and God used all those situations for good.

(12-07-2009 04:32 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]H5172
נחשׁ
nâchash
BDB Definition:
1) to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to practice divination
1a2) to observe the signs or omens

Joseph was reading signs in his cup of wine. That is divination.

If we read that he was reading signs in his cup, then it would be divination.

Yet if we jump back to Gen 43:33

The men had been seated before him in the order of their ages, from the firstborn to the youngest; and they looked at each other in astonishment.
(Gen 43:33 NIV)

"and they looked at each other in astonishment" -

Joesph knew the birth-order because they were his brothers, these were all grown men as Joesph was around 40 years old at this point, (he was at least 37+ years old - it was 30 years earlier that he was sold by his brother's. )
Yet this was not divination that he employed, this seems to be more of his "father's" gene ( Jacob - used craftiness/deception/trickery - but yet God still blessed him.) Because of the earlier actions - they had little room to question Joesph. As well as they decreed a death sentence, slavery on themselves should the cup be found with them. ( 44:9)

It was actually Joesph servant that first said the he could divine.
(Gen 44:4-5 )
And when they were gone out of the city, and not yet far off, Joseph said unto his steward, Up, follow after the men; and when thou dost overtake them, say unto them, Wherefore have ye rewarded evil for good?
now the servant speaks in vs 5.
(5) Is not this it in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.
KJV

Yet the command not to practice H5172 or divination comes into written form in Leviticus 19:26 and Deut 18:10 in the Mosaic Law.

It is also interesting to note that the root of the Hebrew word for serpent as used in Genesis 3:1 is from the same root used for divination H5172. Things that make you think.

H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâsh
BDB Definition:
1) serpent, snake
1a) serpent
1b) image (of serpent)
1c) fleeing serpent (mythological)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5172
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1347a

(01-07-2010 07:19 PM)Just a Berean Wrote: [ -> ]Yet the command not to practice H5172 or divination comes into written form in Leviticus 19:26 and Deut 18:10 in the Mosaic Law.

It is also interesting to note that the root of the Hebrew word for serpent as used in Genesis 3:1 is from the same root used for divination H5172. Things that make you think.

H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâsh
BDB Definition:
1) serpent, snake
1a) serpent
1b) image (of serpent)
1c) fleeing serpent (mythological)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5172
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1347a

That ties in with "Resist the devil (serpent), and he will flee from you".

Snakes are found throughout occultism and Pagan religions, usually representing "wisdom", i.e. knowledge that humans weren't meant to have. The Rider-Waite Tarot deck is full of drawings of snakes, including at least one ouroborus. Masonic art features snake imagery including ouroboruses. Yoga has the kundalini serpent force which is activated by hatha-yoga--the "exercises" which are practiced by many Westerners. Activation of kundalini can literally drive people insane.

Gopi Krishna was an experienced yogi who unintentionally conjured kundalini serpent power and according to him it drove him out of his mind, in addition to giving him mediumistic abilities. Read Johanna Michaelsen's "Lambs to the Slaughter" for more detail on Gopi Krishna and Asian mystical practices.

(01-08-2010 02:36 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]

Was it all a lie, just to scare his brothers? Well, either way, lying is also wrong before God.

Was it still a lie or lying before God's eye's approx 430 year's before the HE wrote the ten commandments on stone with HIS finger? or were they aware of the law going back to when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil?

(01-08-2010 02:36 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ][b]
There is no "this seems to be more of his "father's" gene ( Jacob - used craftiness/deception/trickery - but yet God still blessed him.) " UNless there is a scripture which discusses 'genes' as how sin is passed on. Each person chooses to sin or not, to obey or not. Each person is responsible before God for those choices. From a NT perspective, all must confess those sins and in Christ we know we are forgiven. OT people still had to deal with their sins too.

Their isn't a specific verse - If you have children -I am sure that you see different traits in each child that are more dominant after a single parent - yet this is just human perspective and we have inherited the sinful / fallen nature or Genes of Adam yet never the less after a child is no longer a child and is an adult 12/18/21 years old then they are accountable for their own sins - yet we are to train them up in the way that they are to go, if not are we not also guilty in their sin's?

Rom 3:23 NKJV
(23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,