SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

This is a carry over from another thread>

Sin, judgment and punishment were known before the law.God commanded Adam before Eve was even created. He was told and Eve obviously knew because she had the dialogue with the serpent later.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

knowledge H1847
דּעת
da‛ath
BDB Definition:
1) knowledge
1a) knowledge, perception, skill
1b) discernment, understanding, wisdom
Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3045

good > H2896
טוב
ṭôb
BDB Definition:
1) good, pleasant, agreeable (adjective)
1a) pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)
1b) pleasant (to the higher nature)
1c) good, excellent (of its kind)
1d) good, rich, valuable in estimation
1e) good, appropriate, becoming
1f) better (comparative)
1g) glad, happy, prosperous (of man’s sensuous nature)
1h) good understanding (of man’s intellectual nature)
1i) good, kind, benign
1j) good, right (ethical)
2) a good thing, benefit, welfare (noun masculine)
2a) welfare, prosperity, happiness
2b) good things (collective)
2c) good, benefit
2d) moral good
3) welfare, benefit, good things (noun feminine)
3a) welfare, prosperity, happiness
3b) good things (collective)
3c) bounty
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2895

evil > H7451
רעה / רע
ra‛ / râ‛âh
BDB Definition:
1) bad, evil (adjective)
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity (noun masculine)
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury (noun feminine)
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition

Genesis 2:21-25 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22. And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3:1-7 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2. And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

to make one > wise> H7919
שׂכל
śâkal
BDB Definition:
1) to be prudent, be circumspect, wisely understand, prosper
1a) (Qal) to be prudent, be circumspect
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to look at or upon, have insight
1b2) to give attention to, consider, ponder, be prudent
1b3) to have insight, have comprehension
1b3a) insight, comprehension (substantive)
1b4) to cause to consider, give insight, teach
1b4a) the teachers, the wise
1b5) to act circumspectly, act prudently, act wisely
1b6) to prosper, have success
1b7) to cause to prosper
2) (Piel) to lay crosswise, cross (hands)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

Strong's >opened H6491
פּקח
pâqach
paw-kakh'
A primitive root; to open (the senses, especially the eyes); figuratively to be observant: - open.

Genesis 3:11-13 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12. And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:21-23 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23. Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Note:
1) Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree --which I will refer to as the tree to know good and evil
2) Eve was told by the serpent that even though God had said if they ate from it--they would surely die---he said they wouldn't, and that instead said God knew that if they ate it their "eyes would be opened" and they "should be as gods, knowing good and evil."
3) Eve was enticed by the appearance of the tree and the desire for wisdom and believed the lie
4) Eve took the fruit and then gave some to Adam---and notice when God confronted them---Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. And God held all accountable.
5)They ate and their eyes were opened and they knew the difference between good and evil. Meaning they knew what sin was.

God cursed them and they were expelled from the perfect garden called Eden where God had created them. Sin entered-- with the knowledge to do good or evil before God. How do we know this....

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Here's the questions:

When Eve listened to the serpent she very obviously had free will to choose obedience to God, and disobedience. She was tempted and chose disobedience. Do you agree she and Adam had free will?

Adam must have been right there-as some believe- or close by for her to eat and give him some of the fruit. v17 says, "Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it" So Eve was deceived and Adam listened to her.

Some suggest Adam listened to the whole conversation between the serpent and Eve and never issued a reminder or warning to Eve. He merely took the fruit she gave him.Verse 17, suggests the idea he was in silent agreement with her thoughts about getting wisdom or they had an unrecorded conversation concerning eating the fruit. Either way--he didn't protest, but took the fruit and ate it.

Since the choice was available to obey or disobey on this one thing they were told not to do---was the ability to sin already part of them? Is the knowledge of good and evil different than sinning?

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

My mom said God created humans with free will because God doesn't want automatons, rather He wants people to obey Him willingly. I used to be a fatalist, and sometimes I still wonder if predestination exists, but mostly I believe that humans of sound mind and of age have free will. When I would talk about killing myself my mom would remind me that God told the Israelites "I set before you death and life: choose life" (I can't remember the Torah verse).

God creates a perfect physical world with humans as the stewards. He tells the humans not to eat of one tree out of probably thousands of trees in the Garden, and what do the humans do? I read in a book whose title I cannot recall, that up to that point Adam and Eve had known only good. There are some things that humans don't need to know. Every human since then with the exception of Enoch and possibly Elijah has died or will die as a result of Adam and Eve selling out the creation to sin and Satan.

I believe that most humans have God-given free will. When humans sin our free will is compromised and we can become slaves to sin and to evil spirits. (help, I can't remember that verse either )

(01-10-2010 02:18 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: [ -> ]My mom said God created humans with free will because God doesn't want automatons, rather He wants people to obey Him willingly. I used to be a fatalist, and sometimes I still wonder if predestination exists, but mostly I believe that humans of sound mind and of age have free will. When I would talk about killing myself my mom would remind me that God told the Israelites "I set before you death and life: choose life" (I can't remember the Torah verse).

God creates a perfect physical world with humans as the stewards. He tells the humans not to eat of one tree out of probably thousands of trees in the Garden, and what do the humans do? I read in a book whose title I cannot recall, that up to that point Adam and Eve had known only good. There are some things that humans don't need to know. Every human since then with the exception of Enoch and possibly Elijah has died or will die as a result of Adam and Eve selling out the creation to sin and Satan.

I believe that most humans have God-given free will. When humans sin our free will is compromised and we can become slaves to sin and to evil spirits. (help, I can't remember that verse either )

Is this what you are thinking of?

2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

(01-10-2010 03:00 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]Is this what you are thinking of?

2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

That sounds right. I think there is at least one other verse that says or means the same thing. What is particularly relevant in the verse you posted is that people are taken captive of the devil AT HIS WILL. The devil wants people to sin so he can subvert humans' God-given free will and force his captives to carry out HIS will instead.

The former psychic's testimony shows how people who fool around with the occult (sin) can, against their compromised human will, become involuntary sending stations for evil spirits and forces (channellers). http://www.seekgod.ca/jesustheway.htm

Picking up where you left off Vic,
Romans 5 vs 13 to 17:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

I think what I'm understanding from these first chapters in Romans, and the origin of sin, is that from the beginning God gave us the ability to listen and make a choice: believe God and obey; or do not believe and obey your own way. It seems to me that before the law, sin was unbelief, from the Law and onwards, sin was unbelief, and since the grace of Christ, sin is unbelief. The crux of the matter is found in Hebrews 3 12 - 15
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

Interesting thoughts.

I am just going to throw out some more of what I have been pondering on this.

What if it had been Adam that listened directly to the serpent, not Eve? Would that have changed anything? He still disobeyed God.

In one conversation on this, it was said that Adam and Eve were created to sin. So that God's plan of redemption could be fulfilled, and people would make choices to serve Him. Even though many, for example, Pharoah, were created to show God's glory through disobedience.

There's some verses that came to mind on the concept of them being created to sin that kind of fits, so His plan of redemption could be fulfilled.

1 Peter 1:19-21 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20. Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21. Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

We see the words "before the foundation of the world" and "from the foundation of the world". I think that means before the earth was created versus from the point it was and mankind was created. We also know that those who believe God and believe Christ are predestinated to be with our Lord for eternity because of God's will.

I find it noteworthy that when God created the garden He only put the tree of knowledge of good and evil off limits but the tree of life was also there--which also became off limits after they ate of the forbidden tree. But in Revelation the tree of life is again mentioned that we who belong to Christ are then partakers of it. Adam and Eve chose the forbidden tree over the tree of life which they could have freely eaten from.

Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Just some thoughts.

When you started this thread, as you know I was thinking and studying on "dispensationalism" . This discussion merged into my thinking and confirmed for me that "today" as per the Hebrews verse has personal impact for each individual no matter "when" the individual lived or is living.

But others think differently as I saw on the Berean Call facebook daily bible verse entry discussion. The verse given was

Exodus 19 vs 8Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do" So Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. The discussion from BC started: At this point, the Israelites wanted to make the covenant and to be married to God.

to which someone commented:
"I really prefere to say UNITED to God instead of married to God.I do belive that God is within & knowledge of sin in our time is diferent from the time of old testament.We have to be attentive to God's new message from within. Remember the revelation, time will come that you will need no one to teach you. "

is this person trying to toss out the tree of knowledge of good and evil and say it is something different today? I think she's "doing the twist".

(01-15-2010 05:25 PM)Mary Wrote: [ -> ]When you started this thread, as you know I was thinking and studying on "dispensationalism" . This discussion merged into my thinking and confirmed for me that "today" as per the Hebrews verse has personal impact for each individual no matter "when" the individual lived or is living.

But others think differently as I saw on the Berean Call facebook daily bible verse entry discussion. The verse given was

Exodus 19 vs 8Then all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do" So Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. The discussion from BC started: At this point, the Israelites wanted to make the covenant and to be married to God.

to which someone commented:
"I really prefere to say UNITED to God instead of married to God.I do belive that God is within & knowledge of sin in our time is diferent from the time of old testament.We have to be attentive to God's new message from within. Remember the revelation, time will come that you will need no one to teach you. "

is this person trying to toss out the tree of knowledge of good and evil and say it is something different today? I think she's "doing the twist".

I think they both did scriptural gymnastics. Lets look at the passage in context:

Exodus 19:1-9 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai. 2. For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. 3. And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 4. Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 7. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. 9. And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

It says the people of Israel were chosen by God to be a treasure to Him, "if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."

It does not say they were married to God. Perhaps I am missing something in the conversation. But, that's not what that Scripture says. It says they would be a people specifically treasured by God above other peoples. IF they obeyed Him and kept His covenant. The people agreed. We see this reiterated in Deuteronomy 26:17-19 and other places where the people agree to follow God and keep His commandments. We also see how many fell into unbelief. We then see the parallel of being called out as God's people in Christ, with the coming of the New covenant and Christ fulfilling it. Now Jews and Gentiles are called:

1 Peter 2:2-10 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3. If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

It's not based on our abilities to keep from sinning or being holy or righteous or trying to be obedient, but comes from Christ who set us free:

1 Peter 1:2-5 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

As far the wording of the "God within" and knowledge of sin being different---sounds very new agey. However, sin knowledge that those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the expectation of holiness, in my opinion, is far higher than what was able to be abided by those who did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but rather had to try to abide the law. Which could make no one righteous.

God's "new message" is found in the Written Word of the New Testament which is cohesive with the OT. She's talking newage/new revelation instead of abiding the Word of God. We don't need someone to physically teach us when we have the Holy Spirit giving us understanding of the written Word. It's not based on 'new revelation. It doesn't mean we can't edify and encourage and help give understanding to others as God leads. But anything we do understand from the Scriptures is because God has opened our understanding to them and the Holy Spirit has made them alive to us.

I think that person is likely into charis. or contemplative mentality. And heading way off base.

The dispensational beliefs distort the Scriptures including foundational beliefs. It is really disturbing how many Scriptures are overturned or twisted because of seeing things thru that manmade funnel of understanding.

Thanks Vic, I agree with you.

I have to correct though that I said it was from The Berean Call - it is actually from The Berean. The commentary is by John Ritenbaugh and is apparently part of a series by him called "What is the work of God Now part 3". I was more interested in the woman's comments as applied to what we were discussing in this thread. John Ritenbaugh's commentary probably deserves a thread of it's own ( or maybe better - to be ignored?)

I went back and read the commentary - just this part 3 - and found it to be a tangential attempt to apply this scripture to modern relationships and spiritual immaturity. I will have a look at parts 1 and 2 later.

"I think that person is likely into charis. or contemplative mentality. And heading way off base."

Yes, and the sad thing is that when the Word of God is twisted, manipulated, misapplied or thrown out because the person/s are relying on that "inner voice" to teach them, they become increasingly deceived. God is very gracious to give us His written word to check against ideas, thoughts and "inner voices" that we may hear, and other Christians to fellowship and discuss with, for as you say, edification, encouragement and understanding. It keeps us honest, and empowered.

Another aspect of the issue is that people may take a different starting point: ignoring that Eve made the decision to disobey God and believe satan instead of God, or taking it as a myth or mere symbolism, allows them to narrow sin down to specifics and say "this" is sin and "that" is not, or that was sin, but isn't sin anymore (a common underlying message in TV shows I think). A dispensationalist view probably encourages people to take a different starting point, which leads to people (as this John Ritenbaugh) applying their lives and experiences to scripture, instead of applying scripture to their lives.

---

It seems that John Ritenbaugh and The Berean are offshoots from Armstrongism.