SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

It is fascinating why the reject Paul.

I have experienced the agony of Romans 7 for years. This on one level at least disposes me to think he knew what he was talking about.

But clearly they have not been through this experience. So they never actually tried to keep the Law. Im not talking about the laws of sacrifice, or the food laws, for Jesus fulfilled the first in his cross and declared all foods clean. But the moral law remains, clearly they never tried to keep this

That makes them dabblers and dilletantes as we ll as hypocrites. They advocate a LAW they themselves have never taken seriously. If they had taken it seriously as I and St Paul did, they would have suffered and despaired and seen it was no solution.

They want to be pharisees? well i was a bigger pharisee than they were, as was Paul. And as a pharisee of pharisees i was devastated

---

Yes, Paul is misunderstood, but the HR are the worst examples I have seen of this misunderstanding.

I misunderstood Paul badly. Thinking that grace was a power that energized my efforts only after i had made the choice, i took Paul's commandments legalisatically. THis put me under the Law and out of Christ, and as I could not make the choice so felt time and time again that I was defying the Living God and was close to blaspheming the Spirit. My will is the problem not the solution. I cannot will to obey God and He has never aided and abetted my efforts to do so. His grace is something else entirely

Also, as a child reading Paul, I thought he was a raging bigot. Romans, the first three chapters, are easily misread making Paul appear a sexist homophobe brute, in fact the stereotype of a fundamentalist. But he is nothing of the sort

Under Paul's thought the Law is only the ministry of condemnation , for that is all it produces, if we are sinners. And we all ARE sinners. I know this condemnation from bitter experience, I know that this is the case. When Paul commands what the law commands he is not saying to try hard to obey a commandment he is saying seek the personal relationship with the Lord whereby we are changed and these things come spontaneously.

Paul upheld the Law. If the HR think he denied and repudiated the Law they are the ones who misunderstand Paul. But he also said the Law had a proper use, and legalism, as misuse of the Law, was more dangerous than open debauchery. After all he praised the debauched Corinthians for their gifts but berated the devout Galatians

From another thread - answered here:

Quote:What I mean about Paul and Apollos is that for arguments that are made to justify or explain things in modern day christianity, most of the time people will say "Well Paul says.........." Paul himself said who am I or who is Apollos? Don't follow us, follow the messiah. (Paraphrased) So the point I am making is when someone wants to make a case for their point of view, don't give me "Paul says....." Give me "Yehushua said....."

One little detail - Jesus said that He would give Paul His words. So what Paul says, is what Jesus has told Him to say.

Let's look at some scripture that supports this:

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers has chosen you, that you should know his will, and see that Just One, and should hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For you shall be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand on your feet: for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I will appear to you; 17 Delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom now I send you, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brothers, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13 For you have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and stayed with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write to you, behold, before God, I lie not.
Gal 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
Gal 1:22 And was unknown by face to the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
Gal 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preaches the faith which once he destroyed.
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written to you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Great verses Sheep
just want to draw attention to the last one there

Quote:2Pe 3:15 And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given to him has written to you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter there calls Paul's letters Scripture. Many Messianics call the NT commentary or even do away with Paul's writing altogether sadly.Here we see that Peter put Pauls letters on the same par as the Scriptures.

I did promise to clarify my contention that Paul and Jesus said the same things in different words.

Here's a start. I am impatient, so I assume that you know all these bible passages. If not tell me and i will have to attest what I say

Jesus said he would rise again, Paul said he had
Jesus said he would die for the sins of the World, so did Paul
Jesus claimed divinity, Paul affirmed the Divinity of Christ.
Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, Paul said if you did not have the Holy Spirit you were not one of His
Jesus said come unto me all who are heavy laden and i will give you rest, Paul spoke of the Sabbath rest of the believer
Jesus said his yoke is easy ands his burden is light, Paul said the Law is impossible - this is no contradiction. Given that those who try to justify themselves by legalistic forced effort never have a moment's peace, if we are to have any rest at all it is to give up trying to force obedience, jesus by his implications here rejected justification by Law.
Jesus pronounced all foods clean, Paul said let no man judge you as regards what you eat
Jesus said the Law would never pass away, Paul said that grace and faith actually uphold the Law
Jesus rejected the traditions of men, so did Paul
Jesus said the will of the flesh profits not, Paul condemned fleshly striving as sin, especially to the Galatians who had it bad ( and I have it maybe even worse ).
Jesus longed over jerusalem saying "as a hen gathers her chick under her wings so i longed to gather you, Paul said All of Israel will be saved
Jesus preached hell more than anyone else in the Bible, Paul open romans with a discourse on the wrath of God
Jesus preached repentance Paul did repentance and preached it as the core of his letter to the Romans, not to mention the rest

I may think of more later, but to me Paul and JEsus said the same thing which proves i can and indeed should listen to Paul, particularly when i get over my initial misreading of Paul which i think is what empowers the HR people



Carl, what in St Paul do you think is right? anything?

If not why bother with Christ at all, when rabbinical judaism will offer you and likeminded everything you think you want?

THis is not a sarcasm or a challenge, just a suggestion to consider the logical implications of your thought

As they proved, Paul is an apostle by God's grace and mercy. That day on the Damascus Road shook the world at its foundation and left Paul blind so that he might see. This event proves that he was called and chosen to be an apostle. Why should we listen to Paul? Because he listened to God.