SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

if this is the wrong forum, im sorry ahead of time, wasnt sure where to put it

who are the 144,000?

Revelation 14

The Lamb and the 144,000

1Then I looked, and behold, on(A) Mount Zion(B) stood the Lamb, and with him© 144,000 who(D) had his name and his Father’s name written(E) on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven(F) like the roar of many waters and(G) like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of(H) harpists playing on their harps, 3and they were singing(I) a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders.(J) No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for(K) they are virgins. It is these(L) who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as(M) firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5and(N) in their mouth no lie was found, for they are(O) blameless.

Revelation 7

The 144,000 of Israel Sealed

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back(A) the four winds of the earth,(B) that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2Then I saw another angel ascending© from the rising of the sun, with(D) the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3saying,(E) "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants[a] of our God(F) on their foreheads." 4And(G) I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
512,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 612,000 from the tribe of Asher,12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 712,000 from the tribe of Simeon,12,000 from the tribe of Levi,12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 812,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Until we receive further revelation, the easiest route to take is just accept it at face value. Twelve tribes are mentioned with 12,000 from each tribe. Is there a reason to think that they might be someone other than this?

(07-17-2010 11:09 PM)zeke25 Wrote: [ -> ]Until we receive further revelation, the easiest route to take is just accept it at face value. Twelve tribes are mentioned with 12,000 from each tribe. Is there a reason to think that they might be someone other than this?

Revelation is pretty much an allegorical presentation. It is not all that helpful to read it literally as one runs into numerous "road blocks". The list of tribes does not match those in the OT, which leads one to believe it is allegorical of believers. The entire NT clearly shows that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ and that anyone who comes to Jesus Christ for salvation will not be turned away. In other words, a follower of Christ is not based in ethnicity, but by those who have been born again. There is only one standard for all nations, including the Jews - not a separate one for the Jews and Gentiles.

So, who specifically, do you think they are?



Revelation is pretty much an allegorical presentation. It is not all that helpful to read it literally as one runs into numerous "road blocks". The list of tribes does not match those in the OT, which leads one to believe it is allegorical of believers. The entire NT clearly shows that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ and that anyone who comes to Jesus Christ for salvation will not be turned away. In other words, a follower of Christ is not based in ethnicity, but by those who have been born again. There is only one standard for all nations, including the Jews - not a separate one for the Jews and Gentiles.
[/quote]

(07-18-2010 12:34 PM)zeke25 Wrote: [ -> ]So, who specifically, do you think they are?



Revelation is pretty much an allegorical presentation. It is not all that helpful to read it literally as one runs into numerous "road blocks". The list of tribes does not match those in the OT, which leads one to believe it is allegorical of believers. The entire NT clearly shows that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ and that anyone who comes to Jesus Christ for salvation will not be turned away. In other words, a follower of Christ is not based in ethnicity, but by those who have been born again. There is only one standard for all nations, including the Jews - not a separate one for the Jews and Gentiles.

[/quote]

Believers in Christ. We know from the NT that people from all nations, including the Jews, are in the Kingdom of Heaven. Salvation is not based on what ethnic group you belong to, but all those who are in Christ are His body/bride and have eternal life. That is the inheritance of the New Covenant purchased in His blood.

If I understand you correctly, then you believe the 144,000 is merely a representation of the Body of Christ. This begs a lot of questions. Why is 144,000 used as a representative number? Why is the tribe of Dan missing? Why has Ephraim's name been replaced by the name of his father Joseph, but Manasseh has been left as is? Surely, God had a reason for choosing the expressions that have been used. I don't have any answers at this point, only questions. I am hoping you have some answers.
zeke25



Believers in Christ. We know from the NT that people from all nations, including the Jews, are in the Kingdom of Heaven. Salvation is not based on what ethnic group you belong to, but all those who are in Christ are His body/bride and have eternal life. That is the inheritance of the New Covenant purchased in His blood.
[/quote]

(07-18-2010 01:51 PM)zeke25 Wrote: [ -> ]If I understand you correctly, then you believe the 144,000 is merely a representation of the Body of Christ. This begs a lot of questions. Why is 144,000 used as a representative number? Why is the tribe of Dan missing? Why has Ephraim's name been replaced by the name of his father Joseph, but Manasseh has been left as is? Surely, God had a reason for choosing the expressions that have been used. I don't have any answers at this point, only questions. I am hoping you have some answers.
zeke25



Believers in Christ. We know from the NT that people from all nations, including the Jews, are in the Kingdom of Heaven. Salvation is not based on what ethnic group you belong to, but all those who are in Christ are His body/bride and have eternal life. That is the inheritance of the New Covenant purchased in His blood.

[/quote]

Why does God use any number in the Bible? It is not a literal number. It signifies the holiness that God had once indicated belonged to Israel when He first made the covenant at Sinai - based on the fact that they would obey His commandments and be a holy nation set apart for Him. Rev is a comparison to what God calls holy. Israel did not keep the commandments and broke the covenant. God divorced them. So why would it be a literal 12 tribal count in the age to come? Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned because they were destroyed from being a people/tribe for idolatry [building idols].

All believers, born again, are the temple of the Holy Spirit - not made with hands .....

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Pe 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Dear Sheep Wrecked,

I agree with your statement "All believers, born again, are the temple of the Holy Spirit - not made with hands ...". But, I hope you have a Scripture reference to support this statement that you made: "It signifies the holiness that God had once indicated belonged to Israel when He first made the covenant at Sinai - based on the fact that they would obey His commandments and be a holy nation set apart for Him." What is the Scripture reference that supports the use of the number of 144,000 as a representation of the holiness that once belonged to Israel? I am not able to follow the line of thinking here.

Zeke25







[

(07-18-2010 02:51 PM)zeke25 Wrote: [ -> ]Dear Sheep Wrecked,

I agree with your statement "All believers, born again, are the temple of the Holy Spirit - not made with hands ...". But, I hope you have a Scripture reference to support this statement that you made: "It signifies the holiness that God had once indicated belonged to Israel when He first made the covenant at Sinai - based on the fact that they would obey His commandments and be a holy nation set apart for Him." What is the Scripture reference that supports the use of the number of 144,000 as a representation of the holiness that once belonged to Israel? I am not able to follow the line of thinking here.

Zeke25

I am only seeing that based on what I believe the Scriptures to say. Do you not agree that Jesus used many parables in His observation of Israel's rebellion? And constantly used these parables to bring the back to God's way of doing things? The context of the 144,000 are those who follow the Lamb. Do we not take up our cross and follow Christ?

Did God not call Israel His holy nation? Did He not promise abundant blessings if they obeyed? Is it a stretch to assume that the 144,000 represent that holy people who follow the Lord with all their hearts? This is why I quoted the scriptures that I did. We [born again followers of Christ] are God's holy nation, not the nation of Israel, although all Jews who are born again are part of that holy nation as well. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. Rev is mostly allegorical - do you agree?

Even tho I agree that Christ used many parables and that Israel was rebellious, I just cannot make the connection between that and the 144,000. I was hoping you had something more specific. When our Father gives me more time, perhaps I can study this out a little. And as far as Revelation goes, I think it is a mixture of allegory, real events, history, and prophecy. Revelation 1:19 KJV, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."

I might not have much time to keep writing on this topic. I hope Vicky will answer me on my post to her thread under Christian/Rick Warren. Although, I am looking for a different discussion than Rick Warren. If you go there, you will see what I mean.

Have a nice day
zeke25


Do you not agree that Jesus used many parables in His observation of Israel's rebellion? And constantly used these parables to bring the back to God's way of doing things? The context of the 144,000 are those who follow the Lamb. Do we not take up our cross and follow Christ?

Did God not call Israel His holy nation? Did He not promise abundant blessings if they obeyed? Is it a stretch to assume that the 144,000 represent that holy people who follow the Lord with all their hearts? This is why I quoted the scriptures that I did. We [born again followers of Christ] are God's holy nation, not the nation of Israel, although all Jews who are born again are part of that holy nation as well. There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. Rev is mostly allegorical - do you agree?

[/quote]