SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Vic - This issue about keeping the law, keeping the commandments etc is way off topic on this thread and is something discussed in several other threads. So I hope we can have you read those other threads---they are pretty easy to spot. Start in the Messianic section.

I hope this is a better place to post.

Vic - What Scripture is it that states that keeping the Mosaic law was originally a salvation issue, and therefore keeping it now as a believer is not a salvation issue?

My mistake, I got justification and salvation confused. I was thinking of this scripture:

Gal 2:15 "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

This clearly states justification not salvation.

Vic - Are you aware that there is a difference between God's commandments and the keeping of torah or the mosaic law?

No, I was not aware. If God gave Moses the law would that not make them God's Law? Is there a difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments? As Jesus stated:

Joh 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Does this not mean that all the commandments of the Bible come from the same source?

Vic - Do you have the Scripture that allows for the partial keeping of the Mosaic/Sinai law? What Scripture is it that you are referencing that allows for only keeping parts of it? Because, the Scriptures I read, state that one MUST keep all of it, or incur the curses. That is what is referred to as keeping the law or keeping the law of Moses or keeping the commandments.

The scripture I was referencing has to do with God's commandments about the sacrifice which if I understand correctly is part of the Law.

Deu 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name the. 3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life. 4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning. 5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee: 6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

Deu 12:13 "Be careful that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every cultic place you see, 14 but in the place which the LORD chooses in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you.

Deu 14:22 "You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. 23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 "If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. 26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Since "the place where He chooses to establish His name" location is currently not known today it appears that the commands of the Law for sacrifices do not apply unless we go to the place where He chooses to place His name.

Vic - If you notice these people left Egypt with the Hebrew people when God brought them out, but you will notice they aren't mentioned after the issue of the manna and the quail while in the wilderness.

Numbers 11:4-7 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?

The word that is interpreted mixt multitude here is 'acp@cuph with the meaning collection, rabble, collected multitude. Its root word is 'acaph with the meaning : to gather, receive, remove, gather in

The scripture I referenced as mixed multitude uses the word `ereb with the meaning : mixture, mixed people, mixed company. Its root word `arab has the meaning of : to pledge, exchange, mortgage, engage, occupy, undertake for, give pledges, be or become surety, take on pledge, give in pledge.

Ex 12:38 - A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock.

This to me implies these are different groups

Dredge, you need to understand that you are bringing nothing new to the table. This is the same messianic/hr 'stuff' that is discussed through out this forum and my website. I really recommend you read the threads. BTW--what Bible version are you using? Unless its KJB--you need to be showing which version it is.

Quote:My mistake, I got justification and salvation confused. I was thinking of this scripture:

Gal 2:15 "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
This clearly states justification not salvation.

What it states is that the law does not justify or save anyone. We are justifed and saved through Faith in Jesus Christ.

Quote:Vic - Are you aware that there is a difference between God's commandments and the keeping of torah or the mosaic law?

No, I was not aware. If God gave Moses the law would that not make them God's Law? Is there a difference between God's commandments and Jesus' commandments? As Jesus stated:
Joh 10:30 - I and my Father are one.
Joh 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Does this not mean that all the commandments of the Bible come from the same source?

The word for commandments is entolay [G1785] not nomos which refers to Torah-meaning given specifically to Israel through Moses. Jesus gave many commandments that are not in Torah ie the Mosaic law. We are to follow His Law or the Doctrine of Christ. There is more than one "law" spoken of in the NT. The most important is the Law of Christ, which is not the law of Moses.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 2:2-5 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

The commandments that John is speaking of are those that Jesus gave - a new commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you and laid down My life for you. John also tells us that the command of Jesus is to believe on Him and to love our brothers, which is another way of reiterating Jesus two greatest commandments: Love God above all and your neighbor as yourself. And we see in Jesus' teachings where He said, it has been said, but I say unto you--giving new commandments. If one were listening to Moses after accepting Jesus Christ, it would be in reference to these verses:

Deuteronomy 18:17-19 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

As Sheep said to you in another thread:
A couple of summary thoughts:

Old covenant - shed blood of animals for sin, shed daily.
New Covenant - shed blood of Jesus Christ for all sin, once and for all.

Old covenant - circumcision of the flesh
New Covenant - circumcision of the heart

Old covenant - the Law of Moses was effect
New Covenant - the Law of Christ is in effect

Jesus completely fulfilled the old covenant - it has been replaced His blood, which is the New Covenant. When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is Finished" and the veil of the Temple was rent in two, showing us that God ceased to bind the old covenant on Israel and reconciled ALL men to God through Christ for each of us, no longer through the Levitical priesthood, but now we can approach the throne of grace boldly in Christ

Jesus fulfilled the Jeremiah 31:30-34 prophecy and promise of bringing in the New Covenant--not like the covenant with the fathers--He is the New Covenant and brought in new laws, new priesthood and commandments. Look at Hebrews carefully. There's over a thousand things in the NT that cover do's and don'ts, but it's about the Spirit of the law and the Holy Spirit giving the ability to do the things that please Him.

His yoke is easy. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Jesus' teachings are full of how to treat others, filled with the love of God. This is the message that John spoke of. It's interesting to note that twice John refers to the signs that Jesus did as the greatest witness to Him, not keeping Torah, but living the Gospel.

Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 21:24-25 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

1 John 2:3-11 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 7. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 3:9-24 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Please see the following threads for further discussion:

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=12

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=455

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=65

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=344

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=63

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=206

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=29

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=77
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=56

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The word commandments here is again entolay, not nomos. This refers to the Law of Christ, which is explained above in the passages that John wrote Peter says:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

The holy commandment [entolay] is belief in Christ, which is the Gospel and explained further in the John passages above. Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the gospel--not preach Torah.

Quote:Vic - Do you have the Scripture that allows for the partial keeping of the Mosaic/Sinai law? What Scripture is it that you are referencing that allows for only keeping parts of it? Because, the Scriptures I read, state that one MUST keep all of it, or incur the curses. That is what is referred to as keeping the law or keeping the law of Moses or keeping the commandments.

The scripture I was referencing has to do with God's commandments about the sacrifice which if I understand correctly is part of the Law.

You didn't give the Scripture Dredge, that says you can keep bits of pieces of the law of Moses. Because there isn't one.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Jas 2:10-11 (10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 3:10-14 (10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The verses you referenced all have to do with before the Temple was built and where God required the sacrifices etc to be done.

Deu 16:2--about passover---are you a circumcised Jew who practices Judaism, or have converted to Judaism and become circumcised?; "which thou sacrificedst the first day at even"--are you doing an evening sacrifice?
Deu 12:13 ---before the Temple
Deu 14:22 --the tithe--before the temple

Until the Temple, there was no anointed priesthood mentioned, which was ordained to be of Aaron, his sons and the Levites, and the right of offering sacrifices to God was reserved solely to them. In fact there are examples of dire consequences upon those who were not priests of the Levite lineage, such as King Uzziah [*3][2 Ch 26:19], and Saul [*4][1 Sa 13:7-14], who made sacrifices and offerings, thereby going against God's command concerning the priesthood and sacrifices. The exception
were the occasional sacrifices given by God's chosen prophets, such as Samuel and Elijah.

Since there was a change of priesthood with Christ, and a change of the Law, according to the Scriptures all who belong to Jesus Christ are priests and kings, and the 'royal priesthood.' Before the Levite priesthood, the firstborn of each family gave sacrifices in their own cities and in their own houses. For example, Noah, Abraham, Job, Isaac and Jacob each offered their own sacrifices, and there was no fixed place to give the sacrifices, which changed with the giving of the Law. The covenant made by God at Mount Sinai, had Moses as mediator, and various men were chosen from among Israel to perform the office of priests.[*5] [Ex 24:5] No other priesthood was mentioned other than the somewhat mysterious Melchisedec who is presented as a type of Christ, and many believe, was Christ.

Therefore, there was no God chosen priesthood commanded to be supported with tithes. The tithe, according to the Law of Moses was what was produced by the land such as fruit, corn, grain, and the first born of animals. The tithe, while noted as belonging to God, had one distinct purpose, and that was originally to care for Aaron and the Levite priests who were given no inheritance from God. They owned nothing. [Numbers 18].

The Levites were the only ones to enter the Tabernacle, for fear of death, and very specific procedures, ceremonies, rituals and sacrifices had to be followed in all they did, or they faced dire consequences. Their role was to care for the Temple where the presence of God abode at that time, and they were required to offer both gifts of thanksgiving and sacrifices for sins. [*6] [Le 17:11] The high priest was the head of all religious affairs, was the judge and dispensed judgment for the Jewish nation, and he was the head of all the other priests. [*7] [De 17:8-12] The priests also were to teach the children of Israel the statutes of the Lord, and decide controversies and so on. [*8] [Le 10:11; De 33:10]

After receiving the tithes from the Israelites, the priests in turn were required to also give ten percent of what was given to them.[*9] [Nu18:21-28] Every third year the tithe was to be reserved as a festival tithe and everything brought for the Levites was shared so strangers, orphans, widows and the poor could come and eat and be content [*10][De 14:27-29; 15:1-7; 26:12-15, etc] In fact, the one festival and related tithes was provided for the people to go and spend the tithe on purchasing anything they lusted after or desired, by commandment of God.[*11] [De 12:15, 20, 21; 14:26]

The anointed Levite priesthood, chosen by God, was a gift from God to the Hebrew people for a very specific purpose. No other tribe, or person could fulfill this calling. Their activities included bearing the iniquity of Israel and themselves, and giving the sin offerings that were required to be acceptable before the Lord, and make atonement for their souls. [Lev. 16;17] The book of Numbers speaks of Aaron and his sons called to that very specific duty and then the tribe of Levi being set apart from the rest of Israel. [*16] [Ex. 29:7; 30:23; Le 8:12; Nu 8:6-22, etc]

Now there is no Temple (since about 70 ad)or priesthood for the sacrifices, to bring the tithes to, etc. Because Christ died and was the final sacrifice, and He brought a new priesthood and new law. Your misuse of these scriptures to make your doctrine needs to be corrected. Even if those verses were applicable--you can't just keep bits and pieces. If you want to keep the Mosaic Law--you MUST keep all of it--which is not possible, therefore you incur the curse for not keeping it all. There is zero scripture to justify keeping bits of pieces instead of all of it as commanded by God. You are missing what the New Covenant means and entails.

Quote: Since "the place where He chooses to establish His name" location is currently not known today it appears that the commands of the Law for sacrifices do not apply unless we go to the place where He chooses to place His name.

When the temple was destroyed, the "place" He had established was fully removed. However, He has a place where He has placed His name. And that is on every believer in Jesus Christ. And He indwells every believer, 'tabernacling' with them. Those things were a shadow of things to come---we have the real deal in Christ. A shadow isn't even close to the real image. Notice when Jesus is speaking He is not referring to keeping the words of Moses--but His words. Moses was a servant---Jesus is the Master.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Jesus said: Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

John 14:20-21 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Hebrews 3:1-6 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2. Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

1 Corinthians 3:11-18 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

Please see the following threads concerning tithing and passover, the feasts etc

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=116

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=215

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=242

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=63

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=160

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=333

Quote:Numbers 11:4-7 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?

The word that is interpreted mixt multitude here is 'acp@cuph with the meaning collection, rabble, collected multitude. Its root word is 'acaph with the meaning : to gather, receive, remove, gather in
The scripture I referenced as mixed multitude uses the word `ereb with the meaning : mixture, mixed people, mixed company. Its root word `arab has the meaning of : to pledge, exchange, mortgage, engage, occupy, undertake for, give pledges, be or become surety, take on pledge, give in pledge.
Ex 12:38 - A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock.
This to me implies these are different groups

Exo 12:38 And a mixedH6154 multitudeH7227 went upH5927 alsoH1571 withH854 them; and flocks,H6629 and herds,H1241 even veryH3966 muchH3515 cattle.H4735

multitude H7227 רב
rab
BDB Definition:
1) much, many, great (adjective)
1a) much
1b) many
1c) abounding in
1d) more numerous than
1e) abundant, enough
1f) great
1g) strong
1h) greater than
1i) much, exceedingly
2) captain, chief (noun masculine)
Part of Speech: see above in Definition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: contracted from H7231
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2099a, 2099b

mixed H6154
ערב / ערב
‛êreb / ‛ereb
BDB Definition:
1) woof
1a) as mixed, interwoven
1b) knitted material
2) mixture, mixed people, mixed company
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6148
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1685a, 1685b

This word is used also here:
Nehemiah 13:1-3 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever; 2. Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them,that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing. 3. Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude.

Neh 13:3 Now it came to pass,H1961 when they had heardH8085 (H853) the law,H8451 that they separatedH914 from IsraelH4480 H3478 allH3605 the mixed multitude.H6154

Num 11:4 And the mixt multitudeH628 thatH834 was amongH7130 them fell a lusting:H183 H8378 and the childrenH1121 of IsraelH3478 alsoH1571 weptH1058 again,H7725 and said,H559 WhoH4310 shall give us fleshH1320 to eat?H398

mixt multitude H628
אספּסף
'aspesûph
BDB Definition:
1) collection, rabble, collected multitude
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: by reduplication from H624
Same Word by TWOT Number: 140f

I think you are one of very few who cannot see that this mixed mulititude is in reference to those who left Egypt with the Israelites and referenced in Exodus 12-but were not Israelites. Because they are mentioned separate to the mentioning of the Israelites who left Egypt and werre listed sepearately from the Israelites who also complained and lusted and were destroyed.

An example of some who might have joined the Israelites is found in : Exo 9:20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses: Exo 9:21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.

Since Egypt was now desolate, other foreigners from other nations, those of intermarriages, those who saw no gain to staying in Egypt yet they saw and believed that Israel was somehow protected, and they listened and were spared the plagues when they did what the Israelites did, were likely in that mixed group alongside the Israelites. But according to Numbers 11--they had no faith and were quick to fall in the wilderness along with many Israelites, who did have faith for awhile.
.
Concerning who the passover applied to
Exodus 12:41-49 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt. 42. It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. 43. And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: 44. But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. 45. A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. 46. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. 47. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Only Israel and those strangers who converted, were circumcised and became an Israelite through that circumcision could keep the passover.

What does Paul say:

1Co 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

So, the commandments of God in the NT---are different than the Mosaic laws. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets---it's not just about the Mosaic Law.

Keeping the words of Christ---means knowing Him, and having the indwelling of His Spirit, in order to understand that.

(02-05-2009 03:32 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]Secondly, Paul did not keep the Mosaic Law. The points that he observed were to win the Jews to Christ, but he was not Torah observant.

This is a wrong and insulting statement against Paul. Acts 21 demonstrates that there were many people who were taught along these incorrect lines.

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law." ~ Acts 21:20-24

Paul actually attempted to go through with it, having intent to prove that he kept the Law. Were the Jews of Jerusalem being misled if the intent was to prove that he was "[keeping] the law," but only in part in order to win them? Absolutely.

(10-19-2009 08:56 PM)DavidC99 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-05-2009 03:32 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]Secondly, Paul did not keep the Mosaic Law. The points that he observed were to win the Jews to Christ, but he was not Torah observant.

This is a wrong and insulting statement against Paul. Acts 21 demonstrates that there were many people who were taught along these incorrect lines.

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law." ~ Acts 21:20-24

Paul actually attempted to go through with it, having intent to prove that he kept the Law. Were the Jews of Jerusalem being misled if the intent was to prove that he was "[keeping] the law," but only in part in order to win them? Absolutely.

Perhaps you could explain then why he taught against Torah? For example:

* he did not go up to Jerusalem for the feasts as commanded by Torah for a 14 year period and a 3 year period.

* he taught against circumcising

* he taught against tithing

* he taught against eating "kosher"

What Paul did was agree to be purified with those who were taking a vow. Paul did not take a vow with them. The text does not say that. All manner of assumptions as to what kind of vow is referred to in acts 21, but it is not clearly stated exactly what vow was taken. Since Christ is the final sacrifice, there is no more sacrifice for sin, so no one can give a "legal" sacrifice which means no one is living according to the Law of Moses.

Paul never did the sacrifice - he was arrested and the doors of the Temple were shut against him. I don't think the Jews were too fond of him, do you? It appears that being zealous for the law was not a good thing

The thing is, Paul didn't have to pretend to be a Jew when with Jews ....... he was a Jew He knew the customs and as he stated:

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Paul wasn't being deceptive because as a Jew, along with the thousands who believed Moses and turned to Christ, he understood what Christ did in bringing the New covenant.

Here is the context and please note that Paul reiterates that the four laws of Acts 15 are still in effect. Also, please note that Paul *knew* he was going to be arrested in Jerusalem and went ahead with his plans anyway.

Act 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Act 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
Act 21:12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
Act 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 21:14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.
Act 21:15 And after those days we took up our carriages, and went up to Jerusalem.
Act 21:16 There went with us also certain of the disciples of Caesarea, and brought with them one Mnason of Cyprus, an old disciple, with whom we should lodge.
Act 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
Act 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

Quote:This is a wrong and insulting statement against Paul. Acts 21 demonstrates that there were many people who were taught along these incorrect lines.

"And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law." ~ Acts 21:20-24

Paul actually attempted to go through with it, having intent to prove that he kept the Law. Were the Jews of Jerusalem being misled if the intent was to prove that he was "[keeping] the law," but only in part in order to win them? Absolutely.

Paul went through with it because he wanted to preach the Good News in Jerusalem.There is nothing inherently deceptive in that.He wanted to give his brethren the good news also and to tell what God had been doing also among the Gentiles.
But David do read further down in the passage...

Act 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Act 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Act 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
Act 21:31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.


We see a defence being made for the accusation that he had brought a greek into the Temple but I don't see a defence being made for the other accusations. Those accusations were exactly the same as the ones some people have against Paul.
Some messianics and hebrew roots people say that Paul taught Torah otherwise he would have been lawless , an antinomian and all sorts.
But David the people didnt run Paul out and tried to kill him for no good reason.As Sheep mentioned theres many things that Paul did which could well have caused the Jews listening to think that he was encouraging them to forsake Moses.When Paul would say that we are now the temple of God and living stones..what do you think many of the unbelieving jews would do? Applaud him..or accuse him of speaking against the Temple... and there are many instances like this as Sheep pointed out.