SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Part 5

Truth Seeker

Quote:Vic,

How in the world could you possibly understand the beautiful allegories of the Sod levels of understanding scripture, if you can't even understand the plain literal meaning of the Sabbath?

Your acting like a typical uninformed gentile that thinks they understand all “Jewish” writings. It's easy for someone that is biased to even take things out of context in the Talmud and twist it to suit their agenda. Am I saying every minority opinion within the Talmud is inspired, NO. One common saying is to “eat the date and spit out the seed”. The same approach should be taken to the Dead Sea Scrolls.

You seem to wish to discuss everything but actual Sabbath observance.

Too funny. I guess the Holy Spirit will get me through. Somehow. Without the kabbalistic interpretation of P'saht, Drash , Remez, or Sod..with the acronym called PaRDeS... meaning the kabbalistic interpretation of Scripture

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The kabbalah, which is Jewish mysticism and gnosticism, is found used with many groups. It is the occult, and for many the kabbalah follows up learning the talmud, which is actually a stepping stone into kabblah. From a series I did from 1999, information on the kabbalah> http://www.seekgod.ca/topichr.htm

Also From the article> http://www.seekgod.ca/mjaarevisited.htm

"....Many are teaching that one must also utilize "PaRDes as a tool for Torah study," with the qualifier, "that this would be within normative rabbinic Judaism (and should be in ours), not necessarily just Kaballah, that is why the rule for being 40 years of age and extensively schooled in Torah was the original prerequisite for understanding Sod." and in order to understand the meaning of the Scriptures. However, kabbalah will be discussed and it needs to be understood that Pardes is an acronym for the understanding of Scriptures via kabbalistic means.

It's noteworthy that an article published in the final print edition of the Jerusalem Perspective, written by David Bivin of the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research (JSSR) and who is so popular within the Hebrew Roots movement, is not accepted by many within the Hebrew Roots or Messianic movements or Christians embracing these teachings, because of their not understanding or denying the source of kabbalah or Pardes:

“... students of the Kabbalah speak of Pardes ...which is an acronym derived from the initial letter of each of the four terms (p-r-d-s)....According to the late Professor Gershom Scholem, pioneer researcher in the field of Kabbalah, Moses ben Shem Tov of Leon was the first known writer to mention the acronym Pardes. He did so about 1290 in a composition called Sefer Pardes. Moses ben Shem Tov also wrote The Zohar, which became the most influential work of the Spanish Kabbalists...The Kabbalists were mystics par excellence, and they pursued vigorously Scripture's concealed meanings. They aspired to an elevated spiritual awareness by gaining access to concealed knowledge through scrutinizing each letter of the biblical text and through ecstatic ascents into heaven...Their longing for esoteric knowledge may be traced back in part to earlier Gnostic speculations. Such speculations left their imprints on the Kabbalah...The acronym Pardes belongs exclusively to the domain of the Kabbalah.”

Quoted from an article titled:

“Medieval Jargon on First-century Lips”
Author: David Bivin
Jerusalem Perspective
Page 33
July-September 1999 #56

----

I think I might be a little more informed than you presume, Mike. I would suggest that you have totally turned from the truth of the Scriptures to take up manmade beliefs and traditions and the occult and gnosticism of the kabbalah which brings another spirit. Which is also why your time with us is done. You could not discuss the Scriptures because you do not know them.

Hebrews 5:13-14 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Since this discussion is in the Sabbath thread and it is due to your behavior that these things needed to be discussed, now that you are done here....the thread will get back on topic.

As for you, take this to heart, because it describes you Mike. Sadly so..

Titus 3:8-11 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11. Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

As to whether we are acting inappropriately according to your "banishment" screed...let's look at what we are called to do by the Word of God.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye
have received, let him be accursed. (also 2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

(06-18-2009 09:51 PM)Truth Seeker Wrote: [ -> ]Sheep,

I was planning to address your reply to my 1st reply to you, however since the thread has been "hacked", I can't find it.

Your posts were not "hacked". They were put on moderation due to the fact that you refused to follow the forum rules, answer the questions put to you regarding your sources of information, and your refusal to deal with the copyright issue on the NKJV, etc.

Quote: There is one thing I remember from it though concerning some verses you quoted that mentioned priestly drink offering obligations.

I really should have been more specific when I told you, "there are no Torah commandments regarding drink". What I will be saying to anyone from now on is that there are no drink ingestion regulations in the Torah like their are Meat ingestion regulations.

This was your original statement:

Quote: Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.

Consider these facts...
1)Paul 1st mentions meat and drink.
There are no drink regulations in the "law".

The correct rendering of the verses and context:

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The context is the Law being nailed to the cross, including the instructions for observance of the feasts which included drink offerings. As Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law and that is where the reference to "drink" is mentioned, it would appear that Paul was indeed speaking of the drink offerings. Meat aka sacrificial animals was also offered and the instructions as to what parts the Levites could eat. Some of the drink offerings were also incepted by them.

Quote:Might I recommend you study who the Essenes were and in particular what their dietary and calendar observances were and how they contradicted Torah in their regulations along these lines. Paul's is refuting, in the presence of the assembly via a letter, an Essene. This is why he spends the whole 1st chapter explaining the deity of Messiah. We are only seeing one side of the conversion.

If you expect me to respond to the rest of your post you will need to refresh my memory.

That conjecture is simply without merit. The Essenes were a group that kept to themselves, secluded, and away from the cities. The text says nothing about Paul addressing a specific person. This is quite simply vivid imagination that has absolutely no factual evidence to back it up

Of course I should not be surprised that you bring them up, the HR movement seems to have an obsession about the Essenes

(12-27-2008 03:33 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]In the NT only nine of the ten commandments are mentioned--and the missing commandment is the 4th-the Keeping of the sabbath day.

SEVENTH DAY SABBATH:
Represented in both the Tanakh and the Renewed Covenant.
Scripture quoted from the KJV:...

EDITED OUT BY VIC

Additional note: I personally refer to the Fathers name as Yahweh (YHWH), Abba or Father, and our messiah as Yahushua. To make this discussion more palatable to my Christian brethren however, I've quoted the KJV without revision.[/size]

Message from Vic--Admin

SeekerOfTruth.

It is obvious you neither read the prior posts or bothered with the Forum Rules.

You posted part of an article from a website and didn't bother showing the the name of the article, the author or the copyright requirements.

Just so we are clear--this is what you should have posted-since newbies can't post links or articles.

From the truthontheweb.org. from the article nt10com.htm

TEN COMMANDMENTS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Authored by Brian Hoeck

©1998 Truth On The Web Ministries: All the articles originated by Kenneth Hoeck or Brian Hoeck may be freely distributed or mirrored as long as presented in their entirety (including this statement), attributed to Truth on The Web, and that proper author credit is given.
****

The fact that we have just addressed this with Truth Seeker, who was banned last night....suggests you have the same agenda, same arguments and same attitude...and even use the made up name of Yahushua.

So, since you joined and immediately came to the Sabbath thread and posted...I see no point in prolonging your stay.

Please do not try to go around the banning. I will pursue any attempts with your server.

I am doing a detailed study of the Sabbath right now and I have learned a great deal. The Sabbath is a sign of the Mosaic Covenant, it is the seal of the Suzerain in the covenant, it is the evidence that the people of Israel were a covenant people. A second sign of the covenant was circumcision. Both of these were fulfilled in Christ just as was the entirety of the Mosaic code. My study was spurred on by obnoxious Sabbatarians who wont leave me alone about this subject. To me it seems that they care more about Sabbath observance than they do about the proclamation of the gospel.

In addition there is a very divisive and legalistic spirit behind alot of the emphasis upon this. I would keep Sabbath If God wanted me too but an honest study reveals that Jesus is our Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4) that is why He is Lord of the sabbath. I think that HR folks, Messianics, and Seventh day Adventists ought to spend more time loving and less time preaching about sabbath. The sabbatarian emphasis just makes me want to go hide in a corner. I think that many of these people mean well but they do an awful lot of damage by pushing their beliefs on others as though they have tha answers and everyone else is inferior to them.

Blessings!

Pastor Chris said:

To me it seems that they care more about Sabbath observance than they do about the proclamation of the gospel.

And this is excectly the problem.
When people feel urged to keep, celebrate or remember the shabbath on the 7th day, i don t have a prroblem with that.
After all God seems to find it a special day.
The problem is indeed the pushing, gospel means "good news", and the dead and ressorection of Jesus is that good news,
It seems that shabbath is the only issue on theyre agenda.
This takes away the power of the gospel, His love and compassion with lost sinners.
I trust in Him alone and when He want's me to changes on different area's, let it be so.
But its He who does the changing.

EMJE

(07-22-2009 08:15 AM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]Pastor Chris said:

To me it seems that they care more about Sabbath observance than they do about the proclamation of the gospel.

And this is excectly the problem.
When people feel urged to keep, celebrate or remember the shabbath on the 7th day, i don t have a prroblem with that.
After all God seems to find it a special day.
The problem is indeed the pushing, gospel means "good news", and the dead and ressorection of Jesus is that good news,
It seems that shabbath is the only issue on theyre agenda.
This takes away the power of the gospel, His love and compassion with lost sinners.
I trust in Him alone and when He want's me to changes on different area's, let it be so.
But its He who does the changing.

EMJE

So glad to see you both Emje!

Good points. And the reality is, what someone hardcore focuses on---that's their purpose, their idol, their own tradition, because for those who belong to Christ, first and foremost, He must have the preeminence in all we do. I have yet to see a sabbath promotion by HR that is without agitation and where Christ is esteemed fully during the
presentation. It's as you and others suggest, high pressure, put downs, turmoil---and certainly not the peace of Christ. He is our rest. Daily. That people wish to have a one day a week sabbath rest, appeals to the flesh. Because spritually we are to rest in Him, seven days a week. That doesn't mean we shouldn't enjoy a day off. But that isn't always available when working full time for Christ. Sometimes we are committed daily to His calling and the times "off" are when we have a break, or a meal or go to bed. It's not supposed to be a burden to live for Christ. Not if we rest in Him.

AMen VIC

(07-22-2009 03:05 AM)pastor_chris Wrote: [ -> ]I am doing a detailed study of the Sabbath right now and I have learned a great deal. The Sabbath is a sign of the Mosaic Covenant, it is the seal of the Suzerain in the covenant, it is the evidence that the people of Israel were a covenant people.

Hey Chris,

Could you explain where you get concept of "the seal of the Suzerain in the covenant" from? I am interested because this is what FFOZ teaches as well so I find it rather curious. thanx!

Sheep,

The Suzerain Covenant is an agreement between the ruling king or monarch and the subjects of the kingdom. This type of covenant pre-dates the Sinaitic covenant. Other ancient peoples made these type of covenants with their ruler frequently and the King set the conditons while the subjects would have a visible sign of their commitment to the covenant and its conditions. In this covenant model each party received a copy of the covenant (often in stone). And the covenant was binding with promises of both blessings and curses if the people kept or broke it.

So the Sinaitic covenant is modeled after the covenants typical of the day in other cultures. Obviously God knew that this would clearly communicate to the people that He was Israel's king. In the Suzerain agreement of Sinai the visible signs of the covenant were :

1.) Circumcision
2.) Sabbath

Since we are not the Israelites who received the Suzerain covenant we are not bound by the signs of the covenant. We are bound by the New Covenant found and sealed in the blood of Jesus. Hope this helps Sheep.

Oh also because the Ten commandments were written on Two stone tablets it is likely that one tablet was God's copy and the other was for Israel, it also would mean the Tablets were written on both sides by the finger of the almighty!

Quote:Since we are not the Israelites who received the Suzerain covenant we are not bound by the signs of the covenant. We are bound by the New Covenant found and sealed in the blood of Jesus.

This is what I do not understand about the HR/Messianic movement. They were not born into the covenant and have no obligation to observe shabbas.
While it is true Jesus was a Jew, and as such can be argued he should be observant of the sabbath, it does not apply to his gentile followers.
Yet they try to make the case that the are OBLIGATED to observe shabbas and Torah and nothing can be further from the truth.
Their desire to observe Torah because of their warped belief of what Jesus did they must do even though they are not Jews nor part of the covenant, is confused with what G-d expects them to do....it seems they put their own desires and wants and needs above that of the Almighty.

I on occasion listen to a local Messianic radio show (out of curiosity, not convert, don't get your hopes up, LOL ) and
their constant emphasis is on Torah, Tanach, Law, and little is mentioned of the NT or Jesus.