SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

I have started this thread to try and provide a place where Dee and Daughter of the King (and others) can discuss their specific questions concerning Messianic/HR issues.

This thread will be slightly different in that it might deviate to other topics. Where necessary we will break topics to relevant threads in progress.

Here's 2 of Dee's questions and thoughts

Quote: 1) I watched this video and it is still confusing for me, and could be for your husband too. One slide the narrator says "Oh Gentile, why do you burden yourself with keeping of feasts" (2:39).. but later quotes Scripture as "He told His disciples 'When you partake of the Passover', remember it is about me" (3:53). That would seem contradictory, or is it my brain?

I must confess I didn't watch the video. However the issue of the Passover before Christ, and what happened at 'the last supper' and after Christ was crucified are all part of what should be the topic here. That and can anyone keep the feasts according to the parameters of the Mosaic law? and should anyone? and what does it mean to be a shadow of things to come? and what has been fulfilled with Christ dying and having risen from the dead? What is the passover to believers?

Quote: 2) I am still not quite understanding the parts of Scripture that says "this will be an ordinance forever in your generations" or as a "covenant forever". For example Exodus 12:14, 17, exo. 31:16, etc. If it's forever isn't that forever? Can someone elighten me on that?

This should be discussed as to who the ordinance was given to; what it means; were there any conditions for those to keep it or fail to keep it, etc.

In normal use of a language:
forever is forever, whatever group its spoken to
if they fail or not.

Emje

Quote:I am still not quite understanding the parts of Scripture that says "this will be an ordinance forever in your generations" or as a "covenant forever". For example Exodus 12:14, 17, exo. 31:16, etc. If it's forever isn't that forever? Can someone elighten me on that?

When we do a search of the word forever in the Tanak/Old Testament we see that it is not always the same word.The large bulk of them, though, will be the Hebrew word olam.

However, the hebrew word olam doesn't always mean forever.In the following verses it seems to refer to a past moment in time..as in distant past for example…

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old(m'olam), men of renown.


Deu 32:7 Remember the days of old( olam), consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee


Jos 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time,(m'olam) even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

1Sa 27:8 And David and his men went up, and invaded the Geshurites, and the Gezrites, and the Amalekites: for those nations were of old (m'olam) the inhabitants of the land, as thou goest to Shur, even unto the land of Egypt.

Job 22:15 Hast thou marked the old(olam) way which wicked men have trodden?


There are also some instances where olam does not mean literally forever due to obvious reasons.


Deu 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever(ad olam):


Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever(l'olam).

Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever(l'olam): but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.


1Sa 1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever(ad olam).


1Ki 8:13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever(olamim).

Exo 27:20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always(tamid).
Exo 27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever(olam) unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

Deu 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever(ad olam), when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.


Note here is used the same phrase ie ad olam , as was used in the verse 1 Sam 1:22 and as in the following verses

Jos 4:7 Then ye shall answer them, That the waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the LORD; when it passed over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off: and these stones shall be for a memorial unto the children of Israel for ever(ad olam).

2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never(ad olam) depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

2Ki 5:27 The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever(l'olam). And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow.

Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever(l'olam): yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

The following is particularly interesting

Isa 32:14 Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever(ad olam), a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks;
Isa 32:15 Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.

Here in verse 15 the forever situation of the previous verse seems to be reversed.Thus ad olam did clearly not mean forever in verse 14.


Sometimes verses are translated as forever when it’s a totally different word..

Gen 43:9 IH595 will be suretyH6148 for him; of my handH4480 H3027 shalt thou requireH1245 him: ifH518 I bringH935 him notH3808 untoH413 thee, and setH3322 him beforeH6440 thee, then let me bear the blameH2398 for ever:H3605 H3117

The phrase for forever there in Hebrew is kol yamim literally all the days.
In the following verses there is yet another hebrew word for forever.


Lev 25:23 The landH776 shall notH3808 be soldH4376 for ever(litzmitut):H6783 forH3588 the landH776 is mine; forH3588 yeH859 are strangersH1616 and sojournersH8453 withH5973 me

Lev 25:30 And ifH518 it be notH3808 redeemedH1350 withinH5704 the spaceH4390 of a fullH8549 year,H8141 then the houseH1004 thatH834 is in the walledH834 H2346 cityH5892 shall be establishedH6965 for ever (latzmitut) (H6783 to him that boughtH7069 it throughout his generations:H1755 it shall notH3808 go outH3318 in the jubile.H3104

The reason I am asking, is because this seems to be one foundational hook. I remember it now being one of the first things "taught" to us (verbally) when we visited the local Torah group, that God never changes, so forever means forever on everything that says forever. And 'what part of "forever" don't you understand?' implying we were idiots if we didn't know that.

Now this past week I am reading a very enlightening book. I haven't yet searched your site here to see if you have done any research on the author or not, I'll do that when I finish posting this. The book is "The Final Apostasy - Prelude to Anti-Christ" by Gordon Ginn. Anyway the author states that there are very subtle "cover-ups" referring to Jesus as Messiah in the Hebrew Massoretic OT.

The word "forever" we are told means "never-ending" from translations/versions from the Hebrew Massoretic but he says in the Greek Septuagint, reads correctly as "unto the age". So for Passover especially, the ritual of shed blood was to serve as a reminder UNTIL that Savior came and fulfilled the type, and ratified the New Covenant.

I'm going to quote this part, page 18 "Why, then, do Messianic Jews (and non-Jewish followers I add) celebrate the Old Covenant Seder? Is it simply because they wish to hang on to their culture? But wait! That bit of culture must change when one becomes a Christian because the change is essential to follow Biblical doctrine - it symbolizes Christ's supreme and final sacrifice on the cross. No Christian- whether Messianic Jew or not-- should celebrate a commandment that has, by God's further revelation and decree, become obsolete."

The book discusses the author's belief that the final apostasy could be Christians leaving not just the "church" but the foundation itself i.e. the Savior, Messiah Jesus of Nazareth, Son of Almighty God to join Rabbinical Judaism with all their man-made laws and ordinances. It's been a real eye opener. I have a friend who's had 5 friends renounce faith in Jesus as Savior over the past few years and convert to Judaism (Rabbinical).

I received a flyer recently advertising a meeting with speakers Dean and Susan Wheelock (publishers of Hebrew Roots - I have yet to see what you have researched on them). The last sentence on their flyer reads that in Acts "Paul stated VERY CLEARLY that he still considered himself to be a member of the sect of Pharisees".