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I found this article, and was wondering if anyone knew about this movement?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/genera...al776.html

(12-30-2008 05:47 AM)Inquiring Mind Wrote: [ -> ]I found this article, and was wondering if anyone knew about this movement?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/genera...al776.html

Yes, I am familiar with the movement - also known as "Two House". I found that the article "cut to the chase" quite accurately not only about the "Ephramites" as the "lost" tribes, but the whole Messianic and Hebrew Roots venues as well.

Hopefully some Two House advocates will discuss their movement. I have few questions that I am curious about

To kick things off a bit, I was wondering why Two Housers call themselves by the name of a tribe that God said would be broke from being a people, and a tribe that does not appear as one of the 12 tribes listed in Rev 7



Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty five years Ephraim *shall be broken from being a people*.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

:anyone:

Quote:Hopefully some Two House advocates will discuss their movement. I have few questions that I am curious about

To kick things off a bit, I was wondering why Two Housers call themselves by the name of a tribe that God said would be broke from being a people, and a tribe that does not appear as one of the 12 tribes listed in Rev 7



Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty five years Ephraim *shall be broken from being a people*.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Will throw a few things in here....

the Isaiah passage in Chronology is before Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophesied by at least a hundred and some years....

Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn.

and of course the infamous.....

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

interesting thing about the list in Revelation , how many does Joseph truely have 12 thousand or 24 thousand?

If 12k are for Manasheh and 12k for Joseph wouldnt that mean Joseph has 24k? Yet it sais there are 12,000 sealed from Joseph

Sure many here know the passages Hosea Ezekiel etc..................


malawk

This though one of my favourite passages in the OT about Christ coming among the many others, they are all good honestly hard to choose...

Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken [it].

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

sad though so much Division within the Body but Paul said there must be divisions among it...............let them both grow together till the harvest etc.

Malawk

(12-30-2008 10:15 PM)malawk Wrote: [ -> ]Will throw a few things in here....

the Isaiah passage in Chronology is before Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophesied by at least a hundred and some years....

Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn.

Hmmm - trying to understand how this figures into what God said about Ephraim no longer being a people. It appears to me that God is simply stating that Ephraim is His firstborn.

Quote:and of course the infamous.....

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Help me out here, what does this have to do with Ephraim?

Quote:interesting thing about the list in Revelation , how many does Joseph truely have 12 thousand or 24 thousand?

If 12k are for Manasheh and 12k for Joseph wouldnt that mean Joseph has 24k? Yet it sais there are 12,000 sealed from Joseph

It looks like you proved my point, errr ...... rather God's point. Ephraim ceased to be a people. If Manasseh has 12k and Joseph has 12k, then Ephraim has zilch, zero, nada. When you do the math, the total for all 12 tribes listed is 144,000. Unless of course you are saying that Rev is incorrect

hint:
Ezekiel 37:19 Say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take[H3947 - laqach - seize, lay hold of, snatch] the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.

In other words, Joseph took away the stick from Ephraim.

Hey there sheep,

Quote:Hmmm - trying to understand how this figures into what God said about Ephraim no longer being a people. It appears to me that God is simply stating that Ephraim is His firstborn.

Jeremiah prophesied after the Isaiah verse you mentioned , and if the tense is correct God is saying in Jeremiah that Ephraim "is" His firstborn presently from the time of Jeremiah, no? not "was" My firstborn as one would expect if Ephraim no longer existed...



Ezekiel also prophesied about the same time as Jeremiah during the destruction of the 2nd temple and Ephraim there is given a land inheritance along with the other sons of Israel, whether one understands Ezekiels temple to be future or passed conditional prophesy it still shows some existence of ephraim in Gods plan at that time when He spoke gave the vision to Ezekiel (hundred and some years after He spoke the verse you mentioned)....


Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty five years Ephraim *shall be broken from being a people*.

Eze 48:4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Manasseh.
Eze 48:5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Ephraim.
Eze 48:6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a [portion for] Reuben.

Question would be why would God say Ephraim has an "inheritance" if they were never to be a people again?

As far as the revelation numbers go my point was that in the bible we only know two sons of Joseph which are Ephraim and Mannasseh, Joseph is listed as having 12k and Mannaseh is listed as having 12k totalling 24k for them both.

if Josephs 12k are not Ephraims then wouldnt those 12k by no other possibilty have to be Mannasehs also? who else could they be if not Mannasehs "if" as you suggest Ephraim is no longer a people.

With Ephraim out of the equation those 12k for Joseph would end up being mannasehs also with no other son to be allotted from hence Mannaseh would end up having 24k total.

Or Josephs 12k are actually from Ephraim which would still give Mannaseh a true count of 12k not 24k

Quote:hint:
Ezekiel 37:19 Say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take[H3947 - laqach - seize, lay hold of, snatch] the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.

In other words, Joseph took away the stick from Ephraim.

According to the above passage I posted about God giving Ephraim a land inheritance in Ezekiel seems to go against your interpretation here.

The Isaiah passage was speaking of the immenent northern kingdom exile and does not seem to be permanent in light of other prophesies which "post date" Isaiah

Heres a few from Zechariah which was present at the building of the 2nd temple along with Haggai which mentions Ephraim also....

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an *****, and upon a colt the foal of an *****.
Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion [shall be] from sea [even] to sea, and from the river [even] to the ends of the earth.

He there speaking peace to the nations is Christ from verse 9 no? I believe though so you may have different understanding.

Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein [is] no water.
Zec 9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare [that] I will render double unto thee;
Zec 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

Yup interesting prophecies here, main point is that it shows Ephraim still having some type of existence after thier disbandonment 722bc

The Isaiah verse does bring to mind the "lo ammi" prophecy in Hosea about the northern kingdom which Ephraim was a part of if not the head of, but even there it shows them "not being His people" is not "forever".

Thanks

Greg

(01-01-2009 05:51 PM)malawk Wrote: [ -> ]Jeremiah prophesied after the Isaiah verse you mentioned , and if the tense is correct God is saying in Jeremiah that Ephraim "is" His firstborn presently from the time of Jeremiah, no? not "was" My firstborn as one would expect if Ephraim no longer existed...

Are you proposing that Isaiah is a false prophet?

Quote:Ezekiel also prophesied about the same time as Jeremiah during the destruction of the 2nd temple and Ephraim there is given a land inheritance along with the other sons of Israel, whether one understands Ezekiels temple to be future or passed conditional prophesy it still shows some existence of ephraim in Gods plan at that time when He spoke gave the vision to Ezekiel (hundred and some years after He spoke the verse you mentioned)....

So who is lying? Or could there be another explanation?

Quote: Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty five years Ephraim *shall be broken from being a people*.

Eze 48:4 And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Manasseh.
Eze 48:5 And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a [portion for] Ephraim.
Eze 48:6 And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a [portion for] Reuben.

Question would be why would God say Ephraim has an "inheritance" if they were never to be a people again?

As Rose pointed out, the Ez temple was to be built IF IF IF Israel continued to obey God. It was a vision of what would be IF Israel came back to Torah. The old covenant was CONDITIONAL based on Israel's obedience. Therefore, the inheritance of Ephraim never came to pass. He rebelled, built idols in his cities and turned far from God. Reading Kings and Chronicles shows how not only Ephraim failed, but all of Israel - both houses.

Ephraim was promised an inheritance IF he came back to keep the commandments of God aka Jeremiah and Ez. He never did and therefore fulfilled the Isaiac promise - he is no longer a people.

Quote:As far as the revelation numbers go my point was that in the bible we only know two sons of Joseph which are Ephraim and Mannasseh, Joseph is listed as having 12k and Mannaseh is listed as having 12k totalling 24k for them both.

if Josephs 12k are not Ephraims then wouldnt those 12k by no other possibilty have to be Mannasehs also? who else could they be if not Mannasehs "if" as you suggest Ephraim is no longer a people.

With Ephraim out of the equation those 12k for Joseph would end up being mannasehs also with no other son to be allotted from hence Mannaseh would end up having 24k total.

Or Josephs 12k are actually from Ephraim which would still give Mannaseh a true count of 12k and 24k

Rev does not include Ephraim because he is no longer a tribe and Joseph took BACK his place as a tribe due to the rebellion of Ephraim. Unless Isaiah lied?

Answer me this: how come Dan is not mentioned in the Rev passage, but the Levites are [which were not considered a tribe and had no land inheritance]? oops ..............

Quote:hint:
Ezekiel 37:19 Say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take[H3947 - laqach - seize, lay hold of, snatch] the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.

In other words, Joseph took away the stick from Ephraim.

Quote:According to the above passage I posted about God giving Ephraim a land inheritance in Ezekiel seems to go against your interpretation here.

The Isaiah passage was speaking of the immenent northern kingdom exile and does not seem to be permanent in light of other prophesies which "post date" Isaiah

see above on the conditions of a land inheritance for Ephraim.

Quote:Heres a few from Zechariah which was present at the building of the 2nd temple along with Haggai which mentions Ephraim also....

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an *****, and upon a colt the foal of an *****.
Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion [shall be] from sea [even] to sea, and from the river [even] to the ends of the earth.

He there speaking peace to the nations is Christ from verse 9 no? I believe though so you may have different understanding.

Yes, God is talking about Christ. Please note that the chariot was CUT OFF from Ephraim. And note the battle bow [referring to Ephraim in the Zech passage] is CUT OFF. What do you think cut off means as God uses it throughout the OT?

Quote:Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein [is] no water.
Zec 9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare [that] I will render double unto thee;
Zec 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

I don't think Judah's bow filled with Ephraim is a good thing. Sounds to me like he was shot outta here, as in adios .......

Quote:Yup interesting prophecies here, main point is that it shows Ephraim still having some type of existence after thier disbandonment 722bc

The Isaiah verse does bring to mind the "lo ammi" prophecy in Hosea about the northern kingdom which Ephraim was a part of if not the head of, but even there it shows them "not being His people" is not "forever".

Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for you are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The children of Israel in this passage is NOT the northern kingdom, it's ALL of Israel. Unless you are prepared to state that Judah are not the sons of God, and not as the sand of the sea as prophesied to Abraham, and only the northern kingdom is?

Who do you think the "one head" is?

Joh 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said to them, You know nothing at all,
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spoke he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

How are all the children of God gathered into one?

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Quote:Jeremiah prophesied after the Isaiah verse you mentioned , and if the tense is correct God is saying in Jeremiah that Ephraim "is" His firstborn presently from the time of Jeremiah, no? not "was" My firstborn as one would expect if Ephraim no longer existed...

Are you proposing that Isaiah is a false prophet?


Quote:
Ezekiel also prophesied about the same time as Jeremiah during the destruction of the 2nd temple and Ephraim there is given a land inheritance along with the other sons of Israel, whether one understands Ezekiels temple to be future or passed conditional prophesy it still shows some existence of ephraim in Gods plan at that time when He spoke gave the vision to Ezekiel (hundred and some years after He spoke the verse you mentioned)....

So who is lying? Or could there be another explanation?

Seems obvious that the Isaiah passage was reffering to the northern kingdoms exile and Ephraim then was ceased from being a nation/people.

Notice the 65 year refference....perhaps you can explain how you are understanding the "shall be broken from being a people" phrase, that may be where the trouble is.

Quote:As Rose pointed out, the Ez temple was to be built IF IF IF Israel continued to obey God. It was a vision of what would be IF Israel came back to Torah. The old covenant was CONDITIONAL based on Israel's obedience. Therefore, the inheritance of Ephraim never came to pass. He rebelled, built idols in his cities and turned far from God. Reading Kings and Chronicles shows how not only Ephraim failed, but all of Israel - both houses.

Ephraim was promised an inheritance IF he came back to keep the commandments of God aka Jeremiah and Ez. He never did and therefore fulfilled the Isaiac promise - he is no longer a people.

It is possible the Ezekiel temple was "condtional" but it is possibly future aswell, many things are within those last 8 chapters and they are very specific.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Quote:Rev does not include Ephraim because he is no longer a tribe and Joseph took BACK his place as a tribe due to the rebellion of Ephraim. Unless Isaiah lied?

Answer me this: how come Dan is not mentioned in the Rev passage, but the Levites are [which were not considered a tribe and had no land inheritance]? oops ..............

think you missed my point here, if ephraim is gone then only mannaseh is left which would give mannaseh 24k though it sais mannaseh only has 12k... if ephraim is gone who is left of Joseph but Mannaseh? no one else mentioned to be direct progeny of Joseph besides those two, no?

Not sure why Dan is not mentioned but I do believe Levi was still considered a tribe though your right they didnt have a land inheritance..

Jos 13:33 But unto the tribe of Levi Moses gave not [any] inheritance: the LORD God of Israel [was] their inheritance, as he said unto them.

Revelation btw doesnt mention land inheritance but only the individuals following the Lamb as a note

Quote:Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an *****, and upon a colt the foal of an *****.
Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion [shall be] from sea [even] to sea, and from the river [even] to the ends of the earth.

He there speaking peace to the nations is Christ from verse 9 no? I believe though so you may have different understanding.

Yes, God is talking about Christ. Please note that the chariot was CUT OFF from Ephraim. And note the battle bow [referring to Ephraim in the Zech passage] is CUT OFF. What do you think cut off means as God uses it throughout the OT?

Whole context of verse 10 seems to be speaking about about peace hence the "cutting off" of the chariot and battle bow.

Cut off or cutting off can be either good or bad depending on the context but it is mostly remembered as being "cut off" from ones people or Israel which of course wasn't a good thing. Heres a few places where cut off is a positive context.

Isa 29:20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
Mic 5:12 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no [more] soothsayers:

Depends what is being cut off.

Quote:Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein [is] no water.
Zec 9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare [that] I will render double unto thee;
Zec 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

I don't think Judah's bow filled with Ephraim is a good thing. Sounds to me like he was shot outta here, as in adios .......

To me the passages seem to be speaking of a future salvation similar to this passage in malachi....

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts

Quote:Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for you are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The children of Israel in this passage is NOT the northern kingdom, it's ALL of Israel. Unless you are prepared to state that Judah are not the sons of God, and not as the sand of the sea as prophesied to Abraham, and only the northern kingdom is?

Who do you think the "one head" is?

lets check the context of hosea...

Hsa 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little [while], and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel

definatly the northern kingdom Judah existed quite sometime afterward.

. Hsa 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And [God] said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
Hsa 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

These two verses show clearly the distinction between house of Israel and house Judah, no mercy for Israel but mercy for judah...

Hsa 1:8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
Hsa 1:9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God].

Is the loammi here Judah also which God just said He would have mercy upon and save them?

Hsa 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.
Hsa 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great [shall be] the day of Jezreel.

You are suggesting that because here if the passage is speaking of the house of Israel being sons of the living God and that the same "cannot" be true for judah which imho is false assumption, that would be excluding something (judah) without it being mentioned in verse 10 specifically.

If I say "A" is good without mentioning "B" at all, why would this automatically exclude "B" from being good also? seems to be similar logic you are using there

verse 11 shows both children of Judah and Israel again distinctly and also together and the One Head seems to be He here...

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Quote:How are all the children of God gathered into one?

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

similarly here also..

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Is this movement typical of HR? They seem to be saying they are of Jewish descent if they "feel" like it". To me that simply shows they are indulgent dreamers. That is enough for me to reject them totally.

On the other hand HR has enough superficial plausibility to be dangerous. I cant see that this group is really typical of the HR movement, more a lunatic fringe.

Is this correct or have I missed some thing

(01-01-2009 09:10 PM)malawk Wrote: [ -> ]think you missed my point here, if ephraim is gone then only mannaseh is left which would give mannaseh 24k though it sais mannaseh only has 12k... if ephraim is gone who is left of Joseph but Mannaseh? no one else mentioned to be direct progeny of Joseph besides those two, no?

Not sure why Dan is not mentioned but I do believe Levi was still considered a tribe though your right they didnt have a land inheritance..

Greg,

Revelation does not say Ephraim, it says Joseph. Perhaps you think that God cannot count?

God calls Joseph a tribe - perhaps He was mistaken?

Rev 7:6 Of1537 the tribe5443 of Aser768 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Nepthalim3508 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Manasses3128 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505.

(IGNT) εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] ασηρ 768[OF ASHER,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] νεφθαλειμ 3508[OF NEPHTALI,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] μανασση 3128[OF MANASSEH,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;]

Rev 7:8 Of1537 the tribe5443 of Zabulon2194 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Joseph2501 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Benjamin958 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505.

(IGNT) εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] ζαβουλων 2194[OF ZEBULUN,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] ιωσηφ 2501[OF JOSEPH,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] βενιαμιν 958[OF BENJAMIN,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι

(01-01-2009 10:14 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]Greg,

Revelation does not say Ephraim, it says Joseph. Perhaps you think that God cannot count?

God calls Joseph a tribe - perhaps He was mistaken?

Rev 7:6 Of1537 the tribe5443 of Aser768 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Nepthalim3508 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Manasses3128 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505.

(IGNT) εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] ασηρ 768[OF ASHER,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] νεφθαλειμ 3508[OF NEPHTALI,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] μανασση 3128[OF MANASSEH,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;]

Rev 7:8 Of1537 the tribe5443 of Zabulon2194 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Joseph2501 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505. Of1537 the tribe5443 of Benjamin958 were sealed4972 [5772] twelve1427 thousand5505.

(IGNT) εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] ζαβουλων 2194[OF ZEBULUN,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] ιωσηφ 2501[OF JOSEPH,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι 4972(5772)[SEALED;] εκ 1537[OUT OF "THE"] φυλης 5443[TRIBE] βενιαμιν 958[OF BENJAMIN,] ιβ 1427[TWELVE] χιλιαδες 5505[THOUSAND] εσφραγισμενοι

Umm, Sheep Wrecked...it looks Greek to me

Thought it was originally in Hebrew....