SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

There are lots of angles on this one

Did Paul keep Torah?

Did Paul make an animal sacrifice?

Did Paul promote circumcision [Torah]?

Did Paul promote tithing [Torah]?

Did Paul keep the feasts?




grab some coffee :5161:

and get to posting



thanx

Hi

Just a short reaction for now
wahhh this is so col
i am looking for a vers about this
allready for weeks now
pffffff
its something like

I, Paul who am not under the law

or

I paul, not under the law.....

Can someone help me
i am getting frusrated after looking fot weeks

EMJE

(01-07-2009 05:03 PM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]Hi

Just a short reaction for now
wahhh this is so col
i am looking for a vers about this
allready for weeks now
pffffff
its something like

I, Paul who am not under the law

or

I paul, not under the law.....

Can someone help me
i am getting frusrated after looking fot weeks

EMJE

Hi emje

I couldn't find exactly like you wanted - just a couple of close ones - here they are

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live to God.

Gal 5:18 But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law.

I checked the NIV - maybe that is closer:

NIV
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

KJV
1Co 9:20 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

I don't believe the NIV is accurate, however; because that phrase is not in the Greek TR manuscripts, which I believe is the superior source for the NT. The NIV is based on the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts which changes and/or removes phrases and verses. But I know that Paul taught and believed he was not under the law as stated a few times in the NT

NIV
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Die bedoelde ik
Dank je

EMJE

(01-07-2009 06:21 PM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]NIV
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Die bedoelde ik
Dank je

EMJE

you're

at least I assume you said thank you

dank je looks like "thank you" - not sure what die bedoelde ik means

[/color]
LOL i am so sorry
I have to switch between english and dutch so often that i forgot.

Dank je= thank you
Die bedoelde ik= that one i ment

So the vers i was looking for is from NIV ? hmmm
I don t lik the NIV
Is n t that the one virginia mollencot did the translation also?
To bad that verse is n t in other translations, it would be great prove that Paul was not "under"the law!!!



EMJE

(01-08-2009 12:10 PM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ][/color]
LOL i am so sorry
I have to switch between english and dutch so often that i forgot.

Dank je= thank you
Die bedoelde ik= that one i ment

So the vers i was looking for is from NIV ? hmmm
I don t lik the NIV
Is n t that the one virginia mollencot did the translation also?
To bad that verse is n t in other translations, it would be great prove that Paul was not "under"the law!!!



EMJE

no problem on the language thingie - we can always bug ya for a translation

Yes, that is her and also martin woudstra, were on the board of the NIV, and are self-proclaimed homosexuals

I saw this explanation about Paul sacrificing on another forum and thought that it made sense:

Quote:Did Paul or the apostles sacrifice animals at the temple? Many cite an event recorded in the book of acts as proof of this. Let’s see what the scriptures say:

Act 21

23 Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves;
24 taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law.

The above passage does not state that Paul had taken a vow, and merely instructs him to purify himself with them. We should note this event:

26 Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them.
27 But when the seven days were about to be completed, having seen him in the temple, the Jews from Asia stirred up all the crowd, and they laid hands on him,
28 crying out, Men, Israelites, help! This is the man who teaches all everywhere against the people and the Law and this place. And even more, he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.
29 For they had before seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, whom they supposed that Paul brought into the temple.
30 And the whole city was moved, and there was a running together of people. And laying hands on Paul, they drew him outside of the temple, and at once the doors were shut.
31 But as they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the chiliarch of the cohort, that all Jerusalem is in a tumult.
32 He at once ran down to them, taking soldiers and centurions. And seeing the chiliarch and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.
33 Then going near, the chiliarch laid hold of him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains. And he asked who he might be, and what he is doing.

From the above passage, we see that Paul was arrested on the seventh day. Let’s see what the scriptures say about a vow:

Numbers 6

10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Even the rabbinic writings such as the mishnah, although I do not like to reference them because they are anti christ in nature, also support the fact that the sacrifices for the vow are done on the eighth day. Even if it was Paul’s intent to sacrifice (of which there is no definitive proof) God had a different plan. There is absolutely no Biblical proof that Paul or any of the apostles sacrificed animals at the temple after they became followers of Jesus. The former things were pointed out, only because the current teaching held by some, is that believers need to sacrifice because Paul did. I have heard that some are sacrificing Pesach lambs and such. There is no biblical account of him sacrificing, so it is merely just conjecture.

As far as people today thinking that there is a need to sacrifice still, let me remind you that all sacrifices were done under the supervision of the High Priest. Since Jesus is now the Great High Priest, you might want to consult with Him first, or take the time to re-read the book of Hebrews. Unless Jesus appears (and you better try the spirits) and tells you that you need to sacrifice (not much chance according to Hebrews) then it is totally off limits scripturally.

It should also be noted that the extra Biblical rabbinic writings talk of how the temple sacrifices were not accepted after the time of Christ's sacrifice (the string did not turn from crimson to white).Jesus paid the debt in full once and for all, and to say any different is to mock His finished work on the cross. (it is finished) Accept no substitute.

From Vic's website:

Quote:Was the Apostle Paul Torah Observant?

Paul was a Pharisee, and therefore was well versed in the letter of the Law. Let us examine the actions of Paul after his acceptance of Jesus, and if he felt that non-Jews were obliged to follow it:

Tithing:
Paul taught about giving according to the heart, and not according to the law, and that it was for the saints rather than for the priests, something that today's church needs to gain understanding in:

From the Hebrew Scriptures or TaNaKh [OT] on tithing:

Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.

Nehemiah 10:37 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

Compared to what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

For more on Tithing and Giving please see the series : Is Tithing Scriptural for New Covenant Believers? Under the Law or Led by the Spirit : Introduction

Circumcision: Leviticus 12:3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Paul taught that believers need not be circumcised to be acceptable, but the Jews could according to the custom:

1 Corinthians 7 :18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Paul circumcised Timothy, "because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek." And his mother was a Jewess. [Acts 16:1-3]

Not as under the Law but to make it easier to witness to the Jews.

Acts 16: Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
2 Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek. [also Acts 11:2-3, 10:28 ]

It was always about furtherance of the Gospel. That was Paul's focus. Winning souls to Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

That was his example.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

In other words, even being Biblically 'kosher' was to be undertaken for the purpose of not being a stumbling block or offense to those who held to those things, such as clean and unclean. It was always for the edification of others in order to share Jesus Christ. See also: Romans 14:2-5; 1Timothy 4:1-6, Romans 15:1, 1Corinthians 9:22, 1Corinthians 10:25, Colossians 2:16

Passover/ feasts: Paul instructed that Jesus, our Passover Lamb, was sacrificed for us. Jesus had to be blameless according to God's law to be a pure sacrifice. The Pharisees accused Him many times of breaking the Law, while they continually transgressed it themselves. It was their errant interpretation which was based on their own opinions and tradition, not Scripture, as Jesus illustrated here:

Luke 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ***** from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The Apostle Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

If you look at the Scriptures, you will find that on many occasions Paul did not go to Jerusalem where the Temple was located, which was the center of Jewish religion from Solomon's day until its destruction by the Romans in 70 C.E. This was the only place where sacrifices and certain other rituals of the Jewish religion could be performed, and where the sacrifices were performed every year for passover, which is one of the appointed feasts. [Exodus 12:14, Leviticus 23:5-8, and Deuteronomy 16:1-8; Also see Deuteronomy 16:16]

There are passages recorded in Scripture that show that Paul did not go to Jerusalem on one occasion for a three year period [Gal 1:17-18, 21-22], and another being fourteen years. [Gal 2:1] Paul spent about 18 months in Corinth on his second journey. He spent over 2 years at Ephesus. There were also many other times he was known to be journeying to or in, other cities.

Meaning, that the Apostle Paul did not attend many of the feasts at the Temple during those years.

http://www.seekgod.ca/bradscott4.htm