SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

The following statements were made to me in response to a question I had about trusting the canonicity of the Bible by faith. Has anyone ever heard of "The Holy Spirit does not need the written Word to lead people to Christ"? I haven't. To me, this doesn't make sense because the Holy Spirit inspired the written Word.

Quote:1. Only the Holy Spirit can lead us to a knowledge of Jesus.
2. Many people have studied the Bible for years and never seen the Gospel.
3. The Holy Spirit does not need the written Word to lead people to Christ.
4. Many thousands of early Christians were converted apart from having the Scriptures.

Jesus IS the Word of God.
Scripture merely testifies of HIM, The Eternal Word of God, God's final and ultimate revelation of Himself to a sinful world.

I made this statement about the canonicity of Scripture:

Quote: Linda: If one stating "certain" scripture is not canon is not true, then one is putting forth a lie.

This was the response to me:

Quote: Based upon what Scripture? The Scriptures do not even hold themselves as infallible.

Is this a new teaching? If it's been around for awhile, I'm unfamiliar with it. Where does this teaching come from?

If only some scripture is true, then how do we know which ones to trust? It is either all true or we should just throw it all out. The scriptures do testify of themselves...

Quote:All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Tim 3:16-17 (KJV)

As to whether someone can be saved without the scripture, then I would say yes they can. They only need hear the gospel and accept it. The scriptures will then confirm it, if they can get a hold of a copy.

There is also general revelation...

Quote:Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Romans 1:19-20 (KJV)

This alone cannot save, but believing that God exists is a necessary step in salvation...

Quote:But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:6 (KJV)

I think there is nothing new under the sun. We recently had a bit of a discussion with a member who felt his personal dialogue with what he perceived to be the Holy Spirit, told him he not only did not need to read the Bible, because he was 'terrorized' by it, but it assured him that everything it told him was biblical and he need not worry about that, so didn't have to check it out.

I had to disageee, because everything we believe must align to the Word of God. It is the standard and in fact, the Sword of the Spirit. You can't wield it if you don't know it.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Quote:1. Only the Holy Spirit can lead us to a knowledge of Jesus.

First, no one can know the Father but He draws them first. Jesus said.

John 6:44-47 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Quote:2. Many people have studied the Bible for years and never seen the Gospel.

If people read the Bible and don't find the Truth of Christ in them and the need of salvation, they have not believed they are real and actually the Word of God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Quote:3. The Holy Spirit does not need the written Word to lead people to Christ.

In order for a person to come to Christ, they need to know of Christ crucified, sin, salvation, repentance and forgiveness must be presented, ie, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those truths are within the Word of God. There has to have been given knowledge of those things or a person cannot know Christ, who He is, why He died and so on. No one has ever become a Christian without either reading or hearing the message of Christ.

To suggest the Holy Spirit would somehow override those truths or ignore them suggests the concept of another gospel and another Jesus. The foundation is Jesus Christ. Salvation is found in no other. If someone is thinking they are dialoguing with the Holy Spirit, and are being told they don't need to understand the Scriptures or need them period, they are being lied to, and there is one who loves to lie and appear as an angel of light to deceive. God will not do anything contrary to the Word. So too, the Holy Spirit will do nothing contrary to the Word.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Without the Scriptures, one cannot know all that He wants of you, nor can one know Him in the way He intended.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2Ti 3:16-17 (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2Pe 3:15-16 (15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Quote:4. Many thousands of early Christians were converted apart from having the Scriptures

Many thousands were converted by believing what the prophets of the Scriptures had prophesied, including Moses and believed that Jesus fulfilled those things concerning the Messiah. He taught of Himself from the Scriptures. The apostles taught what He had taught them, and as the Holy Spirit gave them the words, which were written and circulated for all to know of Christ and how to live for Him. The Bereans, first checked whether what Paul said was true in the Scriptures. And he preached Christ crucified and the necessary things of the Gospel. And how to live for Christ. In order to to know whether someone is conveying the gospel correctly, we have the written Scriptures as the standard of truth.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

We need the Scriptures so that we can study to show ourselves approved and be obedient to His call. If a person has the Spirit of Christ, there will be a thirst after righteousness and reading His Word.

It is faith in Jesus Christ and His Word that we know we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we come to Him. We know we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by the Scriptures.

Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Quote:Linda: If one stating "certain" scripture is not canon is not true, then one is putting forth a lie.

Quote:Based upon what Scripture? The Scriptures do not even hold themselves as infallible.

2Ti 3:16a All scripture is given by inspiration of God,...

Psalms 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalms 19:7-9 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

It is not our feelings, experiences, dreams, visions, extra-biblical revelation, voices or opinion that tells us that the Holy Spirit indwells those who belong to Christ. We know that from the Scriptures. If there is no standard for Truth found the Scriptures then we can not say any of the Scriptures are true, including the Truth of Jesus Christ. We cannot pick and choose.

We see these beliefs in the Charismatic and similar circles where premeninence is given to feelings etc, over the proven Word of God. Everyone has their 'word from the Lord', which when tested to the Scriptures fails miserably. We also see these things happening also in the more liberal, contemplative mentality, where direct revelation is taking the place of Scripture. Listening to the 'quiet voice', all to discern the will of God and practice 'experiencing God'. And the Scriptures are no longer the standard of Truth.

The Holy Spirit is there to teach us through the Scriptures because that is how we learn and grow in Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Anddra Wrote:If only some scripture is true, then how do we know which ones to trust? It is either all true or we should just throw it all out. The scriptures do testify of themselves...

I quoted 2 Timothy 3:16 to this person...this was the response:

Quote:True. "Profitable. " Not "vital." Compare to the Eternal Word of God:

John 5:24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (I'm not sure of the version used here...I think it's the NIV)

What is Scripture? Is Scripture defined as whatever fourth century councils decided it was? Or is there a higher qualification? Are we bound by tradition or decisions of ancient councils? Or is there a way to "prove all things" for ourselves?

Anddra Wrote:As to whether someone can be saved without the scripture, then I would say yes they can. They only need hear the gospel and accept it. The scriptures will then confirm it, if they can get a hold of a copy.

There is also general revelation...

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Romans 1:19-20 (KJV)

This alone cannot save, but believing that God exists is a necessary step in salvation...

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:6 (KJV)

The gospel comes from the Scripture. If one memorizes it, it's still Scripture. The devils also believe that God exists and tremble:

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (James 2:19)

Without having the Word of God/the Scriptures engrafted in the heart, one cannot have a relationship with God. Timothy, from a child, was taught the Scriptures by his grandmother Lois and his mother Eunice:

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21)

When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. (2 Timothy 1:5)

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:15)

Timothy only learned from the Old Testament, but it was enough to point him to Christ. Now we have the complete canon of Scripture (OT & NT):

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

---

(04-08-2009 06:16 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]I think there is nothing new under the sun. We recently had a bit of a discussion with a member who felt his personal dialogue with what he perceived to be the Holy Spirit, told him he not only did not need to read the Bible, because he was 'terrorized' by it, but it assured him that everything it told him was biblical and he need not worry about that, so didn't have to check it out.

I had to disageee, because everything we believe must align to the Word of God. It is the standard and in fact, the Sword of the Spirit. You can't wield it if you don't know it.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Quote:1. Only the Holy Spirit can lead us to a knowledge of Jesus.

First, no one can know the Father but He draws them first. Jesus said.

John 6:44-47 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Quote:2. Many people have studied the Bible for years and never seen the Gospel.

If people read the Bible and don't find the Truth of Christ in them and the need of salvation, they have not believed they are real and actually the Word of God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Quote:3. The Holy Spirit does not need the written Word to lead people to Christ.

In order for a person to come to Christ, they need to know of Christ crucified, sin, salvation, repentance and forgiveness must be presented, ie, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those truths are within the Word of God. There has to have been given knowledge of those things or a person cannot know Christ, who He is, why He died and so on. No one has ever become a Christian without either reading or hearing the message of Christ.

To suggest the Holy Spirit would somehow override those truths or ignore them suggests the concept of another gospel and another Jesus. The foundation is Jesus Christ. Salvation is found in no other. If someone is thinking they are dialoguing with the Holy Spirit, and are being told they don't need to understand the Scriptures or need them period, they are being lied to, and there is one who loves to lie and appear as an angel of light to deceive. God will not do anything contrary to the Word. So too, the Holy Spirit will do nothing contrary to the Word.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Without the Scriptures, one cannot know all that He wants of you, nor can one know Him in the way He intended.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2Ti 3:16-17 (16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

2Pe 3:15-16 (15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Quote:4. Many thousands of early Christians were converted apart from having the Scriptures

Many thousands were converted by believing what the prophets of the Scriptures had prophesied, including Moses and believed that Jesus fulfilled those things concerning the Messiah. He taught of Himself from the Scriptures. The apostles taught what He had taught them, and as the Holy Spirit gave them the words, which were written and circulated for all to know of Christ and how to live for Him. The Bereans, first checked whether what Paul said was true in the Scriptures. And he preached Christ crucified and the necessary things of the Gospel. And how to live for Christ. In order to to know whether someone is conveying the gospel correctly, we have the written Scriptures as the standard of truth.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

We need the Scriptures so that we can study to show ourselves approved and be obedient to His call. If a person has the Spirit of Christ, there will be a thirst after righteousness and reading His Word.

It is faith in Jesus Christ and His Word that we know we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when we come to Him. We know we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by the Scriptures.

Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Quote:Linda: If one stating "certain" scripture is not canon is not true, then one is putting forth a lie.

Quote:Based upon what Scripture? The Scriptures do not even hold themselves as infallible.

2Ti 3:16a All scripture is given by inspiration of God,...

Psalms 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalms 19:7-9 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

It is not our feelings, experiences, dreams, visions, extra-biblical revelation, voices or opinion that tells us that the Holy Spirit indwells those who belong to Christ. We know that from the Scriptures. If there is no standard for Truth found the Scriptures then we can not say any of the Scriptures are true, including the Truth of Jesus Christ. We cannot pick and choose.

We see these beliefs in the Charismatic and similar circles where premeninence is given to feelings etc, over the proven Word of God. Everyone has their 'word from the Lord', which when tested to the Scriptures fails miserably. We also see these things happening also in the more liberal, contemplative mentality, where direct revelation is taking the place of Scripture. Listening to the 'quiet voice', all to discern the will of God and practice 'experiencing God'. And the Scriptures are no longer the standard of Truth.

The Holy Spirit is there to teach us through the Scriptures because that is how we learn and grow in Christ.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Thank you Vic!

Great scriptures too!

(04-08-2009 05:46 PM)Anddra Wrote: [ -> ]As to whether someone can be saved without the scripture, then I would say yes they can. They only need hear the gospel and accept it. The scriptures will then confirm it, if they can get a hold of a copy.

I just wanted to clarify that there should be no difference between the spoken gospel and what the bible says. In some countries, it is very difficult to get hold of a copy of the bible, hence the real possibility that the only gospel available to them is what they hear from an evangelist. It is much more important then that the evangelist knows the scriptures so that there is nothing added or taken away from scripture.

Regarding general revelation, I agree that this does not save. Rather, it condemns. We need the gospel and we get this from the scriptures.

Quote:That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture says, whosoever believes upon Jesus shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:9-11

Quote:For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.
Romans 10:13

(04-09-2009 03:34 AM)Anddra Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-08-2009 05:46 PM)Anddra Wrote: [ -> ]As to whether someone can be saved without the scripture, then I would say yes they can. They only need hear the gospel and accept it. The scriptures will then confirm it, if they can get a hold of a copy.

I just wanted to clarify that there should be no difference between the spoken gospel and what the bible says. In some countries, it is very difficult to get hold of a copy of the bible, hence the real possibility that the only gospel available to them is what they hear from an evangelist. It is much more important then that the evangelist knows the scriptures so that there is nothing added or taken away from scripture.

Regarding general revelation, I agree that this does not save. Rather, it condemns. We need the gospel and we get this from the scriptures.

Quote:That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture says, whosoever believes upon Jesus shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:9-11

Quote:For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.
Romans 10:13

Excellent point, Anddra

Its the Gnostic Secret Interpretations again. In a form

But Scripture says otherwise.

2 Peter 3:15-17 * And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; * As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. * Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

That is their problem. But They DO have a purpose.

John 20:31 * But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:14 * How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

---

It is not the text, per se, but the Message. And you can not get the message without the text.

Luke 8:21 * And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

John 5:24 * Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 10:17 * So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But it is NOT to be hidden. That is evidence of darkness.

2 Corinthians 4:1-2 * Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; * But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

What you heard were reports from people who were not saved and could not understand the Scriptures. That is why they read and found not the Gospel. it is not for them.

If you learn Jesus' words and understand them, then they are for You!

(01-29-2010 04:31 PM)Scotchman Wrote: [ -> ]It is not the text, per se, but the Message. And you can not get the message without the text.

I don't think that makes sense. The Word of God is living. It is eternal. Understanding the written words comes by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Word of God is life.

Quote:2 Corinthians 4:1-2 * Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; * But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

What you heard were reports from people who were not saved and could not understand the Scriptures. That is why they read and found not the Gospel. it is not for them.

If you learn Jesus' words and understand them, then they are for You!

That is kind of different way of looking at the text. I think it means false teachers, who appear to know God, but really don't. It sort of twists the meaning to say that it's unsaved people, because unless one is perceived as "saved", Christians would not listen.

Many Christians who love the Lord do not understand the Bible. It is not a judgment on them. Little children do not always grasp the meaning, but they still love Jesus. The mentally disabled can be saved without understanding the Bible either. Some of them only know Jesus.