SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

I don't know if this has been covered or not in a previous thread (being new here on the forum). I looked at some of the recent ones and didn't see it so far. I'm not sure what it means completly. I know it means in part that the Church has replaced Israel as God's people. At least I think that's what it means.

Why is this such a bad thing? This is what I get accused of if I no longer want to be in HR .

(05-21-2009 04:43 PM)live4Him Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know if this has been covered or not in a previous thread (being new here on the forum). I looked at some of the recent ones and didn't see it so far. I'm not sure what it means completly. I know it means in part that the Church has replaced Israel as God's people. At least I think that's what it means.

Why is this such a bad thing? This is what I get accused of if I no longer want to be in HR .

I think the language that people has a lot to do with it, although there are some who do teach that the church "replaced" Israel.

Paul explains it quite well in Eph 2 - it's not that the "church" has "replaced" Israel, but God changed things. ALL, no matter what ethnicity must come to Jesus Christ - He is the only way to the Father.

Eph 2 also states that the dividing wall between the Jews and the gentiles is broken down and in Christ is "ONE NEW MAN". It is no longer an ethnic nation that is now Israel, but a spiritual one in Christ where Jew and gentile no longer matter. God has no favorites, we are all equal in Christ.


Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together grows to an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom you also are built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


That is not replacement theology, that is New Covenant theology

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich to all that call on him.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him

It seems God used ( in a good way) a people to show that no body can please Him 100%.
It seems that God used israel to show the world who He is and what He wants.
And after the cross this thought came to full effect.

Its seems that God it saying
there is a gab between me and My creation,
and the only way to restore it is for Me to come and do what no one can.

And after He has done that
His plan is salvation for all
jew and gentile
man and woman
free and bond
It is the only way is follow Him
all nations have to follow Him and unite in His salvation.
But what happens?
Every believer want to belong to a group that claims to follow Him
that they add to and mingle with the message
is responseble for a false message.
So salvation becomes conditional
only under the umbrella of a certain group or a certain church we can be saved.
This reasoning ends in different denominations and churches
who think they know better then God.
And we put God on the sideline.

So it seems that not Israel is replaced......but God Himself.
how did we get in this mess???


EMJE

It is Romans 11. Israel was grafted out of the believing community, the people of God, because of its unbelief, and we were grafted in. But we are warned not to get conceited at this as we could also be grafted out Romans 1:17 ff (more proof BTW that once saved always is false doctrine).

But in the end Istrael would be grafted back in.

I understand replacement theology means that Israel was totaly reject forever. THis is heresy. If true then God does not keep his promises. But is the church heir to the promises made to Israel, ie good harvests etc? I think not

Incidentally 11:7 uses the word elect to make it clear that the elect is the church. A concordance study shows this is how the word is used. Therefore the elect mentioned in Matthew 24 as regards end times is not israel.

Throughout the NT it is the church

(05-22-2009 06:44 PM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]It is Romans 11. Israel was grafted out of the believing community, the people of God, because of its unbelief, and we were grafted in. But we are warned not to get conceited at this as we could also be grafted out Romans 1:17 ff (more proof BTW that once saved always is false doctrine).

But in the end Istrael would be grafted back in.

I understand replacement theology means that Israel was totaly reject forever. THis is heresy. If true then God does not keep his promises. But is the church heir to the promises made to Israel, ie good harvests etc? I think not

Incidentally 11:7 uses the word elect to make it clear that the elect is the church. A concordance study shows this is how the word is used. Therefore the elect mentioned in Matthew 24 as regards end times is not israel.

Throughout the NT it is the church

The promises made to Israel regarding physical promises were based on a conditional old covenant - IF they obeyed, THEN the promises would be theirs. It was a national covenant. The only promise to "Israel" in the New Covenant aka ALL believers in Christ, is the Holy Spirit and eternal life. This is pointed out in Heb 11 and Gal 3.

The New Covenant in Christ, fulfilled the old covenant - it was no longer valid. Therefore; there is no national covenant with Israel. BUT - Israel or the Jews are grafted into Christ via the New Covenant, IF they accept Him as Messiah - not by the nation, but by the individual. As Eph 3 explains, we are one NEW MAN in Christ. There is neither Jew or Greek/gentile in Christ. A physical nation no longer has special favor with God, but only individuals in the blood of Christ.

When Paul speaks of "all Israel" will be saved, he is referring back to chap 9.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

ps: the church is from Mt Sinai. It did not begin at Pentecost. It was already there. When Jesus said the church would be built on Him, He was referring to the glory of, the continuation of the church in the New Covenant built on Him, the Cornerstone - the mystery of the Gospel - Jew and gentile in Him, is the church fully revealed

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said to the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up to you of your brothers, like to me; him shall you hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give to us:

That was so well put Sheep!

I have a Q

What about israel as a people?
Bible sais:
He won t forget them and make a new convenant with both houses.
and
Efraim was His firstborn
and a Father never forgets His first born.
I see a special place for israel in the future
How and what i am not sure.
But beside every individual believer
Israel is still in God's memory.

Any thoughts on this?

EMJE

When Jeremiah prophesied about the covenant being made with both houses, he addressed them both because at that time they were divided.He stressed both I think because at that time there was a distinction and that way the prophecy covered all Israel, not just some of the tribes or one house. None could then say that promise does not apply to me. However I think the books of Ezra and Nehemiah make it clear that the returnees were regarded as Israel. Every single one of them, even the ones that could not verify their lineage. The 2 sticks did become one and after Babylon, no longer were there two houses or 2 kingdoms. Israel never had a king again. Herod was not a true king since he was not from kingly line of David. Thus after Babylon when God gathered them back to the land as one people, the only King that came along was Jesus.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an a s s, and upon a colt the foal of an a s s.


Emje God did not forget Ephraim.The descendants of Ephraim who chose to stay true to the God of Israel continued to be a part of Israel, its just the tribe perse as a tribe didn’t due to what they did.
Emje Im not sure if by your question here you mean thatGod hasnt yet made that covenant that he promised in Jeremiah 31

Quote:What about israel as a people?
Bible sais:
He won t forget them and make a new convenant with both houses.
and
Efraim was His firstborn
and a Father never forgets His first born.

Do you not believe that the Covenant that Jesus spoke about just before his death is the one that fulfilled Jeremiah 31?

Accusing people of being guilty of "replacement theology" is tantamount to claming that somone is "anti-semitic" in HR circles. The idea is that if you believe that you have replaced the Jews you must hate them. It is a total kanard. I am accused of it often in my dealings with the HR crowd. I am "New Covenant" as sheep stated. I love Jews, I love all people. I just dont like people who try to manipulate me by accusing me of being guily of "replacement theology" and a closet anti-semite. HR is indeed a cult. It is so sad to see my friend trapped inside! He made his ow prison though!

(07-22-2009 03:13 AM)pastor_chris Wrote: [ -> ]Accusing people of being guilty of "replacement theology" is tantamount to claming that somone is "anti-semitic" in HR circles. The idea is that if you believe that you have replaced the Jews you must hate them. It is a total kanard. I am accused of it often in my dealings with the HR crowd. I am "New Covenant" as sheep stated. I love Jews, I love all people. I just dont like people who try to manipulate me by accusing me of being guily of "replacement theology" and a closet anti-semite. HR is indeed a cult. It is so sad to see my friend trapped inside! He made his ow prison though!

Hi Chris,

The reality with HR is that the accusations often fly with much venom and false accusation. It merely shows the fruit of those involved. However, it also shows some who have succumbed to another spirit---because as the foundations of beliefs--ie those of Biblical Christianity are dissected and dismantled, many end up rejecting the Jesus of the Scriptures aka the Jesus of Christians. Therefore this other gospel and other savior---who cannot be Jesus---is what they have come to believe. That is why these tangents and self proclaimed truiths override the truth of the Gospel and Christ.