SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

We think we need to address the issues of leadership and their authority with the texts they use to promote their control, "obey" those who have the rule aka power and so on.

The following are used as "proof texts" of the untouchable authority of leadership proclaimed by many "leaders".

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Note that what is omitted is that all are to be subject "one to another, and be clothed with humility." Many would seem to posit that the rest of the passage is meant for the congregants.

The following is the hammer used to nail the truth of leadership authority. The word "obey" them that have the rule over you.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

obey πείθω peithō
Thayer Definition:
1) persuade
1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
1b) to make friends of, to win one’s favour, gain one’s good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
1c) to tranquillise
1d) to persuade unto, i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2) be persuaded
2a) to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
2a1) to believe
2a2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
2b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3) to trust, have confidence, be confident
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary verb
Citing in TDNT: 6:1, 818

Strong's Concordance: "obey" G3982
πείθω peithō pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

In KJV the word peithō is used 58 times--only 5 of which use obey.
obey, 5 Rom_2:8, Gal_3:1, Gal_5:7, Heb_13:17, Jam_3:3

The other 53 times are as follows:

persuaded, 16 Mat_27:20, Luk_16:31, Luk_20:6, Act_13:43, Act_14:19, Act_18:4, Act_19:26, Act_21:14, Act_26:26, Rom_8:38, Rom_15:14 (2), 2Ti_1:5, 2Ti_1:12, Heb_6:9, Heb_11:13
trust, 7 Mar_10:24, 2Co_1:9, 2Co_10:7, Phi_2:24, Phi_3:4, Heb_2:13, Heb_13:18
confidence, 6 2Co_2:3, Gal_5:10, Phi_1:25, Phi_3:3, 2Th_3:4, Phm_1:21
believed, 3 Act_17:3-4 (2), Act_27:11, Act_28:24
confident, 3 Rom_2:19, Phi_1:6, Phi_1:14
persuade, 3 Mat_28:14 (2), 2Co_5:11, Gal_1:10
trusted, 3 Mat_27:43, Luk_11:22, Luk_18:9
obeyed, 2 Act_5:36-37 (2)
persuading, 2 Act_19:8, Act_28:23
agreed, 1 Act_5:40
assure, 1 1Jo_3:19
friend, 1 Act_12:19-20 (2)
made, 1 Act_12:20 (2)
persuadest, 1 Act_26:28
put, 1 Heb_2:13
waxing, 1 Phi_1:13-14 (2)
yield, 1 Act_23:21

To me, the word peitho is tied in to trusting or having confidence in those you have submitted yourselves to having the rule over you, just as we are to submit one to another---and they are to submit one to another as well.

Many quote verse 19 in the following passage, specifically to state you are never to rebuke or contradict what that 'authority' has to say. However, the rest of that verse and the following verses often conveniently omitted are verses 20-21.

1 Timothy 5:17-21 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.19. Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

20. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Many wrongly state that the following means you don't rebuke the "elder/pastor/any leadership"

1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Ti 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

However, that passage is merely speaking of the older or senior men-not someone specifically in authority. And then it shows how to treat all brethren, regardless of age.

The floor is open.

I think that many protestant leaders, and even many protestant christians, ESPECIALLY the superspirituals and young charismatics, have in fact done what I call usurped the papacy. They claim to be infallible, or at least drop hints in their manner that they think this; they claim to be ex cathedra speaking for God. But unlike the Catholics they have not the sense of modesty to gird their infallibility about with the proper caveats and modification.

I am being ironical. I reject papal infallibility, of course, but odds are on that most protestants actually do not understand what it is. It really seems that the last papal utterance made which was deemed infallible was in 1950 when Pius XII defined a doctrine as a dogma necessary for salvation, that of the assumption of mary. Most of the time the bishop of rome speaks as a private theologian, giving only his oiwn opinion

But as I said, when the local popes of the local protestant churches usurp the papacy they do not bother with the modifiers and the caveats

---

It is funny is it not how they use the verses you refer to to dominate and lord it over us. No sense of service, kindness or humility.

THEY WANT TO RULE because God rules, serve because christ served? hey, no!!

they make themselves bishops in the sense that the word stil connotes to many people, a be-mitred and be-ringed Lord Spiritual who would be a Lord Temporal if he could, a far cry from a mere episcopos - an overseer, someone who looks after the flock of christ.

WE have one in this country, a prosperity teacher who sports the gold rings and the big houses, I refered to him a couple of time before. He got himself ordained a few years ago, as a bishop, mitre and all:

Bishop Brian Tamaki who actually predicted that in 5 years from the time (long gone i think, so he is a false prophet) the political party he was involved in would rule NZ

do a google and see

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ahh!! peitho, to persuade is also to obey when in the middle voice

I have a little greekl, did it 25 years ago

peithomai.

greek has three voices, active, middle and passive. That is to say greek has three sets of verb endings (at least) and these three dertermine themeaning (others are to do with tenses, future etc)

active is o ending in the first person, means i do something

middle is omai ending in the first person, meaning i do something to myself, hence peithomai is to persuade myself. to persuade myself is the greek word for to obey

cant remember the passive ending, i think it is same as the middle but is seen by context. . .

so they may be correct in their references to peithomai to obey, but how do they abuse it?

what kind of obedience do they want? for the gritted teeth willpower "do as i say whether you want to or not" is not of God, it is the world

(07-30-2009 06:29 PM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]so they may be correct in their references to peithomai to obey, but how do they abuse it?

what kind of obedience do they want? for the gritted teeth willpower "do as i say whether you want to or not" is not of God, it is the world

The church today has elevated the role of pastor to one of all authority. He rules, teaches and instructs the doctrines and practices that the flock must abide by. He is also the governing "ruler" of the entire "council" that makes decisions as to where the tithe goes, who gets the left hand of fellowship, and judges the sins of his flock. He is the ultimate authority.

Although some churches appear to be more "democratic", the pastor is usually the "force" behind all decisions that are made and cover every area of the churches "domain".

In other words, he is the appointed/called/anointed god-man of/to the church, and if his congregants or parishioners do not bow in obeisance they will find themselves on the outside looking in. Unfortunately, most christians *will bow* for fear of rejection and abandonment - and loss of salvation [the threat of this is very real as lordship of the church over the saints, pounds into them that if they aren't in a congregation, they are destined to hell].

(07-30-2009 05:15 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]We think we need to address the issues of leadership and their authority with the texts they use to promote their control, "obey" those who have the rule aka power and so on.

The following are used as "proof texts" of the untouchable authority of leadership proclaimed by many "leaders".

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Note that what is omitted is that all are to be subject "one to another, and be clothed with humility." Many would seem to posit that the rest of the passage is meant for the congregants.

The following is the hammer used to nail the truth of leadership authority. The word "obey" them that have the rule over you.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

obey πείθω peithō
Thayer Definition:
1) persuade
1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
1b) to make friends of, to win one’s favour, gain one’s good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
1c) to tranquillise
1d) to persuade unto, i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2) be persuaded
2a) to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
2a1) to believe
2a2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
2b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3) to trust, have confidence, be confident
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary verb
Citing in TDNT: 6:1, 818

Strong's Concordance: "obey" G3982
πείθω peithō pi'-tho
A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): - agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) content, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

In KJV the word peithō is used 58 times--only 5 of which use obey.
obey, 5 Rom_2:8, Gal_3:1, Gal_5:7, Heb_13:17, Jam_3:3

The other 53 times are as follows:

persuaded, 16 Mat_27:20, Luk_16:31, Luk_20:6, Act_13:43, Act_14:19, Act_18:4, Act_19:26, Act_21:14, Act_26:26, Rom_8:38, Rom_15:14 (2), 2Ti_1:5, 2Ti_1:12, Heb_6:9, Heb_11:13
trust, 7 Mar_10:24, 2Co_1:9, 2Co_10:7, Phi_2:24, Phi_3:4, Heb_2:13, Heb_13:18
confidence, 6 2Co_2:3, Gal_5:10, Phi_1:25, Phi_3:3, 2Th_3:4, Phm_1:21
believed, 3 Act_17:3-4 (2), Act_27:11, Act_28:24
confident, 3 Rom_2:19, Phi_1:6, Phi_1:14
persuade, 3 Mat_28:14 (2), 2Co_5:11, Gal_1:10
trusted, 3 Mat_27:43, Luk_11:22, Luk_18:9
obeyed, 2 Act_5:36-37 (2)
persuading, 2 Act_19:8, Act_28:23
agreed, 1 Act_5:40
assure, 1 1Jo_3:19
friend, 1 Act_12:19-20 (2)
made, 1 Act_12:20 (2)
persuadest, 1 Act_26:28
put, 1 Heb_2:13
waxing, 1 Phi_1:13-14 (2)
yield, 1 Act_23:21

To me, the word peitho is tied in to trusting or having confidence in those you have submitted yourselves to having the rule over you, just as we are to submit one to another---and they are to submit one to another as well.

Many quote verse 19 in the following passage, specifically to state you are never to rebuke or contradict what that 'authority' has to say. However, the rest of that verse and the following verses often conveniently omitted are verses 20-21.

1 Timothy 5:17-21 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.19. Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

20. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Many wrongly state that the following means you don't rebuke the "elder/pastor/any leadership"

1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
1Ti 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

However, that passage is merely speaking of the older or senior men-not someone specifically in authority. And then it shows how to treat all brethren, regardless of age.

The floor is open.

Yes I agree with you Vic exactly I use best word (persuade by the true conduct /example of the leader! accordingly 1 Cor. 4:16 and 1 Cor. 11:1 Ken!

One more thing to ask to see where the final authority lie on ?? only on Lord Jesus Christ wonder that which one on earth here on one man "pastor" poiemen or group of men "elders" presbuteros or still belong to Lord Jesus Christ Himself Alone ! either positions (pastors/teachers/elders) rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit as He direct them into the ministry of word and prayer with the "final authority" on Himself Alone ! right?? Because I read ( Acts 13: 1-4) good example! Smile Ken!

(10-27-2011 01:52 PM)deafguy55 Wrote: [ -> ]One more thing to ask to see where the final authority lie on ?? only on Lord Jesus Christ wonder that which one on earth here on one man "pastor" poiemen or group of men "elders" presbuteros or still belong to Lord Jesus Christ Himself Alone ! either positions (pastors/teachers/elders) rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit as He direct them into the ministry of word and prayer with the "final authority" on Himself Alone ! right?? Because I read ( Acts 13: 1-4) good example! Smile Ken!

Good points Ken. It is and has always been about Christ and obedience to Him and His Word. For Every single believer.