SeekGod.ca Discussion Forum

Hi!

I wasn't sure which topic to post under. I was wondering how people feel about Max Lucado as an author and whether his books are good. Along the same line, what about David Jeremiah? Any input?

Starting a separate thread for David Jeremiah...

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=428

A quote from Max Lucado's book No Wonder They Call Him The Savior as he Comments on, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46)

Quote:Lucado states:

"The despair is darker than the sky. The two who have been one are now two. Jesus, who had been with God for eternity, is now alone. The Christ, who was an expression of God, is abandoned. The Trinity is dismantled. The Godhead is disjointed. The unity is dissolved" (p. 47).

Any thoughts?

I have some information in my website. Here's a list of some of the articles with a few quotes:

The cnp members who connect with Lucado in some manner:

http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.br.htm#bright

In 1994, Bright fasted 40 days during which he claims to have received a "prophecy from God" that a mighty revival is coming. He then issued a call for hundreds of liberals, charismatics, and new-evangelicals to gather in Orlando December 5-7 to fast and pray for revival. An ecumenical Invitation Committee included such individuals as CNP's Rev. E.V. Hill , James Dobson, Pat Robertson, and Larry Burkett, and others like Robert Schuller, Charles Colson, Jack Hayford, W.A. Criswell, Charles Stanley, Paul Crouch, Luis Palau, and Bill Gothard.

For Chuck Colson See: Evangelicals and Catholics Together http://www.seekgod.ca/ect2.htm

The "Fasting & Prayer" conference held in November of 1995 united 3,500 evangelicals and charismatics. The Invitation/Host Committee for this event included many of those from 1994, plus CNP's Tim LaHaye and Beverly LaHaye, and others like Dick Eastman, Chuck Smith, Bill McCartney, Shirley Dobson, Paul Cedar [LCJE], Ted Engstrom (World Vision), Joseph Stowell (Moody), and Joseph Aldrich (Multnomah). The 1996 conference increased it's committee to include Max Lucado , Henry Blackaby, Loren Cunningham (YWAM), Greg Laurie, Dennis Rainey, Randy Phillips (Promise Keepers), Josh McDowell, CNP's Dr. D. James Kennedy, Howard Hendricks, and Neil Anderson. 12

http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.c.htm#carlson ; http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.ho.htm#jhoward

http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp.mo.htm#smoore
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Evangelicals and Catholics Together: http://www.seekgod.ca/ect2.htm

EVANGELICALS

Dr. Gerald L. Bray (Beeson Divinity School)
Dr. Bill Bright (Campus Crusade for Christ)
Dr. Harold O. J. Brown (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School)
Mr. Charles Colson (Prison Fellowship)
Bishop William C. Frey (Episcopal Church)
Dr. Timothy George (Beeson Divinity School)
Dr. Os Guinness (The Trinity Forum)
Dr. Kent R. Hill (Eastern Nazarene College)
The Rev. Max Lucado (Oak Hills Church of Christ, San Antonio, Texas)
Dr. T. M. Moore (Chesapeake Theological Seminary)
Dr. Richard Mouw (Fuller Theological Seminary)
Dr. Mark A. Noll (Wheaton College)
Mr. Brian F. O'Connell (Interdev)
Dr. Thomas Oden (Drew University)
Dr. James I. Packer (Regent College, British Columbia)
Dr. Timothy R. Phillips (Wheaton College)
Dr. John Rodgers (Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry)
Dr. John Woodbridge (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School)
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The Gospel of Jesus Christ: An Evangelical Celebration
http://www.seekgod.ca/ec.htm

Drafting and endorsing committees >http://www.seekgod.ca/ec.htm#the


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Ecumenical Faith > http://www.seekgod.ca/ecumenicalfh.htm

...There is now a Presidential Prayer Team webpage >http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org./. The Goal is to have "2.8 million People of all faiths, races and political affiliations, " praying for the President, the Cabinet and the US nation. A telephone conversation with their Tucson, Arizona office, which is their National Communication office, revealed that this website project was the brainchild of Dr. Cornell Haan and Bill Hunter. Their secondary office is in Washington D.C.

Although no information was available concerning Bill Hunter, Dr. Cornell Haan is on staff as National Facilitator of Ministry Networks in Mission America's Coalition of the Lighthouse Movement.> http://www.lighthousemovement.org/coalition.htm The Lighthouse Movement Handbook, The Lighthouse Prayer Journal, and The Lighthouse Devotional which, "Devotionals are written by well- known Christian leaders such as Jack Hayford, Max Lucado, Henry Blackaby, Bill McCartney and Bill and Vonette Bright." are all compiled by Dr. Haan and promoted on the Lighthouse Movement main page.

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Part 2: EJECCT: Ecumenical Jews, Evangelicals, Charismatics & Catholics Together

http://www.seekgod.ca/eject2.htm

Also> http://www.seekgod.ca/unite.htm

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Comments on Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ > http://www.seekgod.ca/gibsoncomments.htm

Max Lucado >Pastor – Best selling Author > "Thank you for allowing our congregation to preview the movie trailer of The Passion. In just four short minutes, the images and the authenticity left our members “spell bound”. Something went right to the heart of those who watched the trailer. You have our prayers and support as we look forward to the release of the movie."

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PK, MJAA, UMJC & Toward Jerusalem Council II

http://www.seekgod.ca/jerusalempk.htm


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The Message: Who Endorses & Promotes Eugene Peterson's Opinion of the Bible

http://www.seekgod.ca/themsgendorsements.htm

Lucado, Max >> Max Lucado > ecumenical pastor of the Oak Hills Church of Christ; author; served as general editor of the New Century Version The Inspirational Study Bible, which is also written in "everyday language"; Lucado's 15-minute radio program, UpWords, is heard daily in 47 states on more than 1,000 stations.; teaches the Church of Christ's false doctrine that salvation comes only after baptism; PK speaker; Speaker on an instructional DVD on Contemplative Prayer called "Be Still" which includes Renovaré's Richard Foster and Beth Moore, founder of Living Proof Ministries for Women.
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That's all the searches showed for sources on my site.

He's ecumenical and much more.

(07-31-2009 11:38 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]A quote from Max Lucado's book No Wonder They Call Him The Savior as he Comments on, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46)

Quote:Lucado states:

"The despair is darker than the sky. The two who have been one are now two. Jesus, who had been with God for eternity, is now alone. The Christ, who was an expression of God, is abandoned. The Trinity is dismantled. The Godhead is disjointed. The unity is dissolved" (p. 47).

Any thoughts?

I think that might cover my thoughts on Max Lucado

(07-31-2009 11:38 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]A quote from Max Lucado's book No Wonder They Call Him The Savior as he Comments on, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46)

Quote:Lucado states:

"The despair is darker than the sky. The two who have been one are now two. Jesus, who had been with God for eternity, is now alone. The Christ, who was an expression of God, is abandoned. The Trinity is dismantled. The Godhead is disjointed. The unity is dissolved" (p. 47).

Any thoughts?

This was a topic that was brought up in a discussion we had a while ago. Oneness Pentecostals do not believe in the Trinity so it was asked if Christ was God, how could He die on the cross and why would Jesus cry out that He had forsaken him? We were told that it was Jesus' "human nature" crying out (the same reason he prayed the way he did in the Garden of Gethsemane).
If God cannot be where there is sin, how could He be the one on the cross if it says that Jesus took the sins of the world on upon him on the cross?
As far as Max Lucado's statement, I don't know. Is it misleading? I guess I don't really know what I need to about the topic of Jesus on the cross and who He was when He was dying.

(07-31-2009 11:53 AM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-31-2009 11:38 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]A quote from Max Lucado's book No Wonder They Call Him The Savior as he Comments on, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27:46)

Quote:Lucado states:

"The despair is darker than the sky. The two who have been one are now two. Jesus, who had been with God for eternity, is now alone. The Christ, who was an expression of God, is abandoned. The Trinity is dismantled. The Godhead is disjointed. The unity is dissolved" (p. 47).

Any thoughts?

This was a topic that was brought up in a discussion we had a while ago. Oneness Pentecostals do not believe in the Trinity so it was asked if Christ was God, how could He die on the cross and why would Jesus cry out that He had forsaken him? We were told that it was Jesus' "human nature" crying out (the same reason he prayed the way he did in the Garden of Gethsemane).
If God cannot be where there is sin, how could He be the one on the cross if it says that Jesus took the sins of the world on upon him on the cross?
As far as Max Lucado's statement, I don't know. Is it misleading? I guess I don't really know what I need to about the topic of Jesus on the cross and who He was when He was dying.

Why don't we start a separate thread on that issue and keep this thread about Max Lucado, although we can pursue the issues here as well.

Hey Mark, I did some checking and found two threads which address your question about Jesus and who He is.

In Apologetics > Is Jesus God, Son of God or both?

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=15

In Christianity > Trinity, Oneness and The Persons of the Godhead

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=106

If you go through those and then want to ask your question or modify it or just comment then we can go from there ok?

That would seem to contradict the following verse.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Some of the Apostles and most of the Jews forsook Jesus, but John and some of the women did not. Does this mean that they acted with greater character towards Jesus, than God?

If God had left Jesus, then people would have seen a lack of faith and doubt on Jesus' part. I think they witnessed trust and faith in a loving Father because Jesus' actions on the cross even stimulated faith in those that were watching Him.

Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

God who promises not to forsake us, did not forsake His Son. Would Jesus have commended His spirit into His Father's hands if His Father had forsaken Him?

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


Jesus was quoting Psalm 31:5

Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

The answer is further found in Psalm 22. and Psalm 31. Jesus' cry of abandonment became a cry of trust. Any of you that have ever gone through horrible pain and suffering, have probably thought that God "abandoned/forsook" you. Yet, He was there all the time.

Psa 31:22 For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.

Psa 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psa 31:24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.


Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Jesus was also very well acquainted with Psalm 31. Let's go back to it for a few verses.

Psa 31:1 In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.
Psa 31:2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.
Psa 31:3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
Psa 31:4 Pull me out of the net that they have laid privily for me: for thou art my strength.
Psa 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Jesus' time on the cross was a display of total submission and dependence on His Father. A dependence that was never broken and a trust that He knew deep down, His Father was with Him.

If you never ever remember anything, remember that God will never forsake you (and we ARE sinful). Look very carefully at Psalm 31:22.

Psa 31:22 For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.

Psa 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psa 31:24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.

The Father strengthened His heart so that He was able to address Him as Father, one last time and say, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.

Something "feels" real strange about what Max Lucado says and others say. The Scriptures tell me something different.

Thanks Rick!

I know I got off on the topic about Max Lucado. One last question though; If Jesus WAS God, how could he commit his spirit to Him? I know I'm going to go "Duh!" when I get the answer because I should know it already. Anyway, maybe you can explain it is terms I can understand.
Thanks!