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I took a look at the local christian tv station, not something i do often, but it had a good programme on darwin the other week. Today I came across a preacher called Joseph Prince.

I smelled a rat, the typical ranting manner of a fleshly unbelieving fanatic, and the title of either his book or the sermon wass "destined to reign". well, it might stricly speaking be true but they push it too far and so into heresy.

I googled his name and discovered that it is not his real name, but his real name is not revealed.

I smell a rat even now. Thoughts? Input?

(11-20-2009 02:39 AM)Strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]I took a look at the local christian tv station, not something i do often, but it had a good programme on darwin the other week. Today I came across a preacher called Joseph Prince.

I smelled a rat, the typical ranting manner of a fleshly unbelieving fanatic, and the title of either his book or the sermon wass "destined to reign". well, it might stricly speaking be true but they push it too far and so into heresy.

I googled his name and discovered that it is not his real name, but his real name is not revealed.

I smell a rat even now. Thoughts? Input?

Joseph Prince is a charismatic prosperity teacher who puts a little different twist to the same old, same old. He preaches grace - God will give a lot of material wealth because He is a God of grace

He proclaimed at the end of 2008 that his voice gave him a prophetic word for 2009 that it would be the "year of jubilee". This is a favorite prophecy of this movement and for the last 15 years, without fail, 1000s of "prophets" speak forth this same pile of fluff which has yet to come to pass. More of the same old same old hype. Your own personal "jubilee" must include sowing "seed" aka big bucks into HIS ministry in order to find favor with God and get a good return on your investment .......... err, reap a 100 fold aka lots of favor and material blessings. He should know - he made over $550,000 in 2008 and his ministry New Creation Church took in over 4 million dollars.

He has been on several "tours" promoting his "new" teaching [grace], worldwide - Australia and primarily Europe. His church is based in Singapore with a church membership of about 19,000. The prosperity message is still a big hit even with a financial crunch around the world. I guess people still believe that God is gonna open the windows of heaven and pour out more gold dust or cash or whatever He lives in luxury and has expensive tastes. Big surprise there

I was listening to more of his schpiel in one of his sermons as he introduces some "new revelation" that Jesus went to the synagogue on "Shabbat" and was reading the parasha - referring to Luke 4. Of course Luke 4 & 5 are your ticket to wealth. It seem even more messianic flavor is now circulating the charis movement. the parasha [reading cycle of the first five books, the prophets, and the other writings of the OT] is a rabbinic addition found in the Talmud and was not even around in the first century. I love how these guys do their homework

He changed his name, but refuses to give his birth name. Those is "high places" usually have stuff to hide and it appears that Prince is no exception.

I would say he is a pretty good size rat

From what I've seen and heard, I would not be jumping on the "rat" train over this... so far every teaching I've heard has been backed up with scripture.

His birth name was Xenonamandar Jegahusiee Singh.
If that were my name, I think I'd change it... YOU?

Check out his teachings, compare them to scripture, and decide for yourself.
Sometimes we Christians tend to jump all over a suspected satan without all the facts, ie: the inquisition.

(11-28-2010 09:07 AM)BoltLane Wrote: [ -> ]From what I've seen and heard, I would not be jumping on the "rat" train over this... so far every teaching I've heard has been backed up with scripture.

His birth name was Xenonamandar Jegahusiee Singh.
If that were my name, I think I'd change it... YOU?

Check out his teachings, compare them to scripture, and decide for yourself.
Sometimes we Christians tend to jump all over a suspected satan without all the facts, ie: the inquisition.

Thanx for the info on Singh, but it was not readily assessable and is not included in his biographies that I could find - only in sites exposing him.

Joseph:

Quote:“I give thank for God for my roots in the Word of Faith teachings. It is truly on the shoulders of great men of God like Brother Kenneth E. Hagin that we are able to see further into the Word of God today. Growing up, I learned a lot about faith from Brother Hagin who truly had a special revelation of faith from the Lord. I deeply honor and respect him for all that he has taught me.”

And Joseph Prince says -

“You are destined to reign in life. You are called to be a success, to enjoy wealth, to enjoy health and to enjoy a life of victory… He has called you to be the head and not the tail.”

http://alertsweden.blogg.se/2010/june/si...-prin.html

This is what "Brother Hagin" teaches:

Quote:Kenneth E. Hagin : "God came down in the cool of the day in the Garden of Eden to commune and fellowship with him [Adam]. as he had in the past. And he couldn't find him. He called out to him, 'Adam, where art thou?' And he said, 'I hid myself.' Why? Because of sin. Because, first, sin separates you from God. Secondly, by sinning, by listening to the Devil, he took upon himself the nature of the Devil into his spirit being." ("How Jesus Obtained His Name" [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, n.d.], audiotape #44H01, side 2.)

Kenneth E. Hagin : "Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." ("The Incarnation," The Word of Faith 13, 12 [December 1980]:14; cf. E.W. Kenyon, The Father and His Family, 100.)

Kenneth E Hagin said, "He [Jesus] tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins" (Ken Hagin, "How Jesus Obtained His Name".)

"Christ’s physical death on the cross was not enough to save us" (How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01). "The Christian 'is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth" ("The Incarnation," The Word of Faith, Dec. 1980).

"Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God" (Kenneth Hagin, "How Jesus obtained His Name", Tape #44-H01).

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread...he-Serpent

(Click on the youtube link in the article and see for yourself how insanely the faith movement is - featuring Hagin and Kenneth Copeland. Note: one of the guys holding up Hagin in the blue shirt and suit is his grandson and watch what happens to him. This is not God - it is demonic.)

On one of Prince's websites:

Quote:Joseph Prince Ministries and other Teachers Of God


Andrew Wommack
Brian Houston
Charles Capps
Charles Stanley
Fred Price

Gregory Dickow
James Merritt
Jerry Savelle
Jimmy Evans
Creflo Dollar

Kenneth Copeland
Kenneth Hagin
Leroy Thompson
Mike Murdock
Myles Munroe

http://www.biographyministries.com/josep...tries.html

All of those men are false teachers who deny the deity of Christ and teach that Jesus was born again in hell. [Stanley is the only exception that I know of].


On that same link:

Quote:Discover the secret of reigning over every adversity, lack and destructive habit that is limiting you from experiencing the success, wholeness and victory that you were destined to enjoy. The power to live this way comes from knowing who you are in Christ and how He has blessed you immeasurably. Learn to live in the fullness of Christ's blessings today!

That is pretty much the Faith movement's mantra >>> that God wants you healed, delivered, rich and successful. This is not what the Bible teaches. Being in Christ is living for Him, trusting Him through all of life's circumstances, rejoicing in whatever happens to you, being changed in your heart and renewed in your mind by the Holy Spirit to live a pure and righteous life for the Lord by being full of and living the fruit of the Spirit. We are not to desire wealth, success, and to live a sick free life. It is not possible nor advantageous. Our hope must be in the Lord alone, not in things or the conditions in which we live.

1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

2Co 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
2Co 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
2Co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2Co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.




Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
ves, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

What kind of God do you guys believe that we serve?...

GENESIS 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

GENESIS 9:1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

GENESIS 9:7 And as for you, be fruitful and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth and multiply in it."

GENESIS 12:2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.

GENESIS 13:2 Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold.

GENESIS 24:1 Now Abraham was old, well-advanced in age; and the Lord had blessed Abraham in all things.

GENESIS 24:35 "The Lord has blessed my master greatly, and he has become great; and He has given him flocks and herds, silver and gold, male and female servants, and camels and donkeys.

GENESIS 26:12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and reaped in the same year a hundredfold; and the Lord blessed him.

GENESIS 26:13 The man began to prosper, and continued prospering until he became very prosperous;

GENESIS 26:14 for he had possessions of flocks and possessions of herds and a great number of servants. So the Philistines envied him.

Each of these scriptures shows how God blesses and causes us to live abundantly, because He loves us! And, these scriptures are all in the OLD testament, before grace in its fullness had even been established through Jesus dying on the cross to take away ALL of our sins, past and present, so that we could live with HIS righteousness!

I don't understand what Bible you are reading if you think God does not want us to live abundantly and FREE from sickness and afflictions.

Simply put, everything GOOD comes from God, bad=satan. Affliction comes from satan, not because God wants us to live a miserable life.. What kind of witness is that? Tell all of the unbelievers to come join us in a miserable life of sickness and poverty in the name of Christ and see what response you get. That is not the message of GOOD NEWS...

Yes, we will suffer through pain and affliction simply because we live in an imperfect world and suffer consequences of our decisions here on earth, but it is never God's desire for us to live anything but an ABUNDANT LIFE!



John 10:10- The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might [b]have it more abundantly.

Matt 6:30- "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith![/b]

In response to the person that said its not in the Bible, or God's will for us to live SICK FREE... What do you think Jesus healed so many people during His ministry for? Just to show off?? NOT AT ALL!!

Why do you think He said that after He ascended that we would be empowered by the Holy Spirit to do even greater things than He had? He sent people out to HEAL THE SICK! and said He came to give life more abundantly!

I'm not sure what Bible you are reading, but according to my Bible and the Word of my God, Joseph Prince's teaching are on point.

Maybe you should sit down and listen to one of his teachings and follow along in the Bible with the scriptures. Everything that he teaches is backed up with scriptures. I've never seen one of his teachings with anything made up or not backed up with scriptures. See how you feel after you follow along his messages with your Bible.

As far as him changing his name goes... what does that have to do at all with his teachings?? You smell a rat simply because you couldnt find his real name?... If you had a name that you didn't like, or no one could pronounce, would you feel it necessary to tell everyone what it is even after you change it?
Actors and actresses, musicians change their names all the time for a stage name...
Not that this is necessarily a stage name... but would it make any sense to try to put your teachings out there with a name no one could pronounce?...
"Hey have you heard that teaching by H;lkjdifvjdnjeudsk??"
Why is that being made such a big deal?...

Check your motives daily, and it isn't our place to be judgemental, ESPECIALLY if his teachings are backed by the Bible.

---

(11-28-2010 01:53 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-28-2010 09:07 AM)BoltLane Wrote: [ -> ]From what I've seen and heard, I would not be jumping on the "rat" train over this... so far every teaching I've heard has been backed up with scripture.

His birth name was Xenonamandar Jegahusiee Singh.
If that were my name, I think I'd change it... YOU?

Check out his teachings, compare them to scripture, and decide for yourself.
Sometimes we Christians tend to jump all over a suspected satan without all the facts, ie: the inquisition.

Thanx for the info on Singh, but it was not readily assessable and is not included in his biographies that I could find - only in sites exposing him.

Joseph:

Quote:“I give thank for God for my roots in the Word of Faith teachings. It is truly on the shoulders of great men of God like Brother Kenneth E. Hagin that we are able to see further into the Word of God today. Growing up, I learned a lot about faith from Brother Hagin who truly had a special revelation of faith from the Lord. I deeply honor and respect him for all that he has taught me.”

And Joseph Prince says -

“You are destined to reign in life. You are called to be a success, to enjoy wealth, to enjoy health and to enjoy a life of victory… He has called you to be the head and not the tail.”

http://alertsweden.blogg.se/2010/june/si...-prin.html

This is what "Brother Hagin" teaches:

Quote:Kenneth E. Hagin : "God came down in the cool of the day in the Garden of Eden to commune and fellowship with him [Adam]. as he had in the past. And he couldn't find him. He called out to him, 'Adam, where art thou?' And he said, 'I hid myself.' Why? Because of sin. Because, first, sin separates you from God. Secondly, by sinning, by listening to the Devil, he took upon himself the nature of the Devil into his spirit being." ("How Jesus Obtained His Name" [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, n.d.], audiotape #44H01, side 2.)

Kenneth E. Hagin : "Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth." ("The Incarnation," The Word of Faith 13, 12 [December 1980]:14; cf. E.W. Kenyon, The Father and His Family, 100.)

Kenneth E Hagin said, "He [Jesus] tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins" (Ken Hagin, "How Jesus Obtained His Name".)

"Christ’s physical death on the cross was not enough to save us" (How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01). "The Christian 'is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth" ("The Incarnation," The Word of Faith, Dec. 1980).

"Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God" (Kenneth Hagin, "How Jesus obtained His Name", Tape #44-H01).

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread...he-Serpent

(Click on the youtube link in the article and see for yourself how insanely the faith movement is - featuring Hagin and Kenneth Copeland. Note: one of the guys holding up Hagin in the blue shirt and suit is his grandson and watch what happens to him. This is not God - it is demonic.)

On one of Prince's websites:

Quote:Joseph Prince Ministries and other Teachers Of God


Andrew Wommack
Brian Houston
Charles Capps
Charles Stanley
Fred Price

Gregory Dickow
James Merritt
Jerry Savelle
Jimmy Evans
Creflo Dollar

Kenneth Copeland
Kenneth Hagin
Leroy Thompson
Mike Murdock
Myles Munroe

http://www.biographyministries.com/josep...tries.html

All of those men are false teachers who deny the deity of Christ and teach that Jesus was born again in hell. [Stanley is the only exception that I know of].


On that same link:

Quote:Discover the secret of reigning over every adversity, lack and destructive habit that is limiting you from experiencing the success, wholeness and victory that you were destined to enjoy. The power to live this way comes from knowing who you are in Christ and how He has blessed you immeasurably. Learn to live in the fullness of Christ's blessings today!

That is pretty much the Faith movement's mantra >>> that God wants you healed, delivered, rich and successful. This is not what the Bible teaches. Being in Christ is living for Him, trusting Him through all of life's circumstances, rejoicing in whatever happens to you, being changed in your heart and renewed in your mind by the Holy Spirit to live a pure and righteous life for the Lord by being full of and living the fruit of the Spirit. We are not to desire wealth, success, and to live a sick free life. It is not possible nor advantageous. Our hope must be in the Lord alone, not in things or the conditions in which we live.

1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

2Co 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
2Co 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
2Co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2Co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.




Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
Php 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
ves, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

I'm not sure how you are getting that the men you listed deny the deity of Christ...
Its simply a grace message that Jesus died to provide for us. To provide us with righteous, hope, the right to come straight into the presence of God, without shame. His death washed away ALL sins! All we have ever committed and ever will committed!
And Joesph Prince DEFINITELY does NOT deny the deity of Christ! If you have listened to ANY of his messages, you would see that it is ALL about Jesus! Every bit of it! We are FREE to live abundantly because of what Jesus did!

Jesus himself said in John 10:10, "The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance"(to the full, till it [a]overflows).

kg18, In the future, please answer only one post at a time. It gets too confusing to answer several posts in one, especially if they are lengthy. And please answer my pm. Please also SHOW your version due to copyright.

Quote:Each of these scriptures shows how God blesses and causes us to live abundantly, because He loves us! And, these scriptures are all in the OLD testament, before grace in its fullness had even been established through Jesus dying on the cross to take away ALL of our sins, past and present, so that we could live with HIS righteousness!

I don't understand what Bible you are reading if you think God does not want us to live abundantly and FREE from sickness and afflictions.

Just to clarify, each of the Genesis verses you sourced was showing how God blessed the individual person. Might we turn to Job to see how God also allowed destruction and loss in Job's life? How about David? Jacob? Israel?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

2Ki 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
2Ki 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Psa 77:1 <To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of Asaph.> I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me.
Psa 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.
Psa 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.
Psa 77:4 Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak.
Psa 77:5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Psa 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.
Psa 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more?
Psa 77:8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
Psa 77:9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.
Psa 77:10 And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High.
Psa 77:11 I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old.
Psa 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.
Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
Psa 77:14 Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
Psa 77:15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.
Psa 77:16 The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled.
Psa 77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.
Psa 77:18 The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.
Psa 77:19 Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.
Psa 77:20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And notice what Jesus said concerning the idea that all sickness etc was of the devil or caused by sin:

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

What did James say about when people BECOME SICK?

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? [/b]let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. [/b]

God's grace was evident throughout Scripture starting from Adam and Eve's disobedience. He could have destroyed them right then, but He did not but 'punished' them for their disobedience. The consequence of sin, and throughout Scriptures, both Old and NEW, we see God's perfect judgments, mercy and grace on those issues. In fact we know that God does allow sickness for His purposes.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, [u]My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to
my wants.
Php 2:26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Php 2:28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
Php 2:29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
Php 2:30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

Quote:Simply put, everything GOOD comes from God, bad=satan. Affliction comes from satan, not because God wants us to live a miserable life.. What kind of witness is that?

Tell all of the unbelievers to come join us in a miserable life of sickness and poverty in the name of Christ and see what response you get. That is not the message of GOOD NEWS...
Yes, we will suffer through pain and affliction simply because we live in an imperfect world and suffer consequences of our decisions here on earth, but it is never God's desire for us to live anything but an ABUNDANT LIFE!

So you think the rose garden doesn't have thorns? Everything good comes from God and everything bad comes from satan. So when God sent His Son Jesus---that must have been a bad thing since He ended up crucified, and dying for all our sins? And when people have incredible wealth yet don't know Christ, that wealth must still come from God because wealthy "abundance" is only from God not satan?

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

God's chastisement is from Him and can come in many ways.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Affliction can come because of disobedience, but life in this imperfect world also allows for trials and tribulations. Who said that unless one is rolling in wealth they are miserable and are living less than an 'abundant' and victorious life in Christ? The love of money is the root of all evil. The disciples were sent out with nothing, and Jesus said He did not have a place to lay His head. Was He then a poor example of trusting and living for God? How about the apostles?

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

Those who belong to Jesus Christ will suffer persecution.. Is that some of the information you don't want those who may come to Christ, to know about? That reality? And what of suffering persecution because of Christ in us, which all who live for Christ will endure, or not?

2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You wish to paint a picture of serving Christ without loss, trials, possible poverty, illness, death, persecution, destruction and life issues in general? What bubble would you be living in and what Scripture would support it? Resting in Christ is doing just that, in spite of all that could occur all around us and what may happen to us. We are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.

Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

splitting answer for size....

kg18

Quote:Matt 6:30- "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith![/b]

In response to the person that said its not in the Bible, or God's will for us to live SICK FREE... What do you think Jesus healed so many people during His ministry for? Just to show off?? NOT AT ALL!!

Jesus healed the many to show mercy and to show it was just as easy for Him to heal physically as it was to forgive sins. He was shown to be of God because of what He did, that He had the authority over life and death. The Scripture you quoted was the assurance for all believers to know that God would take care of them and provide all their NEEDS, and we would never have to be concerned with those issues of having clothes to wear--even if it means having only one set of clothes to wear; and having food to eat --not necessarily 3 meals a day but all our NEEDS will always be met by God Himself, because He already knows what we need in this life. There's a difference in needs and
wants and lusting after the things of this world and the flesh.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Quote:Why do you think He said that after He ascended that we would be empowered by the Holy Spirit to do even greater things than He had? He sent people out to HEAL THE SICK! and said He came to give life more abundantly!

You are mixing concepts and doctrine. The apostles were given specific calling and their eyewitness testimonies were followed by signs and wonders to prove they were also of God. There's other threads discussing this. Abundant life does not equal free of problems. The apostles are clear examples of that and which were given for us to understand incidently. And they got sick. Their families got sick. Their friends got sick. And as the Holy Spirit allowed, some were healed openly by them, some had to go the whole sickness and become well after a time. And some died. Spiritually they were made whole in Christ as are we all.

Quote:I'm not sure what Bible you are reading, but according to my Bible and the Word of my God, Joseph Prince's teaching are on point.

Maybe you should sit down and listen to one of his teachings and follow along in the Bible with the scriptures. Everything that he teaches is backed up with scriptures. I've never seen one of his teachings with anything made up or not backed up with scriptures. See how you feel after you follow along his messages with your Bible.

Has he ever prophesied something and it hasn't come to pass? Read post 2 again. That means according to the Scriptures that person would be a 'false prophet'. Does God say you have to give money to some ministry in order to find favor with God? Aren't we already at peace with God in Christ?

2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
2Co 2:16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
...Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Quote:Check your motives daily, and it isn't our place to be judgemental, ESPECIALLY if his teachings are backed by the Bible.

Well that's the problem isn't it? Several have read his teachings or listened to them and are saying quite clearly his teachings are not backed up by Scripture and are contrary to Scripture. And you actually haven't proven they are Scriptural either...We are to use the Word of God and make righteous judgments based on proving all things to the Word. Your emotional plea does not do that and your use of Scriptures is really not supporting what you are wanting to claim for sound doctrine. On the contrary, you are not on solid ground with what you are saying.

Quote:I'm not sure how you are getting that the men you listed deny the deity of Christ...
Its simply a grace message that Jesus died to provide for us. To provide us with righteous, hope, the right to come straight into the presence of God, without shame. His death washed away ALL sins! All we have ever committed and ever will committed!
And Joesph Prince DEFINITELY does NOT deny the deity of Christ! If you have listened to ANY of his messages, you would see that it is ALL about Jesus! Every bit of it! We are FREE to live abundantly because of what Jesus did!

We have no righteousness of our own. Jesus is our righteousness. He lives to ever make intercession for us because we cannot do it in ourselves or for ourselves.

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God
by faith:

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Saying the name of Jesus is not the same as declaring Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. There are many who delcare the name of Jesus and do not know Him as Savior and Lord. So unless he has declared Jesus Christ in particular ways, abides the doctrine provable in the Scriptures, he is presenting another gospel and another Jesus. Word/faith etc is exactly doing that.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. <The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.>

Quote:Jesus himself said in John 10:10, "The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance"(to the full, till it [a]overflows).

Incidently, regarding your inaccurate quote of John 10:10--first the context has nothing to do with wealth and what things we have on this earth. It has to do with life in Christ--eternal life that can only come through Him, the Good Shepherd. It does not that "they may have and enjoy life" with the implication being about wealth and abundance on temporal things. Here's what it actually says in context which you have fully missed:

Joh 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. [/b]

Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This whole passage is laying our salvation in Christ, who He is, and the gospel being inclusive to Jews and Gentiles. But you have to understand the context and what is being meant. Just as Jesus had to explain the parable because in the first verses the disciples did not understand what He was teaching.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Those who belong to Jesus Christ are known to Him and know His voice and will not follow the thief or robber, that is the false teacher or false prophet. They follow Him. And will flee from those who do not proclaim the same Gospel of Christ and the sound doctrine as found within the Scriptures and understood as the Holy Spirit gives understanding, by reason of use.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

(11-12-2011 03:07 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]kg18, In the future, please answer only one post at a time. It gets too confusing to answer several posts in one, especially if they are lengthy. And please answer my pm. Please also SHOW your version due to copyright.

Quote:Each of these scriptures shows how God blesses and causes us to live abundantly, because He loves us! And, these scriptures are all in the OLD testament, before grace in its fullness had even been established through Jesus dying on the cross to take away ALL of our sins, past and present, so that we could live with HIS righteousness!

I don't understand what Bible you are reading if you think God does not want us to live abundantly and FREE from sickness and afflictions.

Just to clarify, each of the Genesis verses you sourced was showing how God blessed the individual person. Might we turn to Job to see how God also allowed destruction and loss in Job's life? How about David? Jacob? Israel?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

2Ki 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:
2Ki 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Psa 77:1 <To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of Asaph.> I cried unto God with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he gave ear unto me.
Psa 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted.
Psa 77:3 I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah.
Psa 77:4 Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak.
Psa 77:5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Psa 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.
Psa 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more?
Psa 77:8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
Psa 77:9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.
Psa 77:10 And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High.
Psa 77:11 I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old.
Psa 77:12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.
Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?
Psa 77:14 Thou art the God that doest wonders: thou hast declared thy strength among the people.
Psa 77:15 Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah.
Psa 77:16 The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubled.
Psa 77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.
Psa 77:18 The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook.
Psa 77:19 Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.
Psa 77:20 Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And notice what Jesus said concerning the idea that all sickness etc was of the devil or caused by sin:

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

What did James say about when people BECOME SICK?

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? [/b]let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. [/b]

God's grace was evident throughout Scripture starting from Adam and Eve's disobedience. He could have destroyed them right then, but He did not but 'punished' them for their disobedience. The consequence of sin, and throughout Scriptures, both Old and NEW, we see God's perfect judgments, mercy and grace on those issues. In fact we know that God does allow sickness for His purposes.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, [u]My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Php 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to
my wants.
Php 2:26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Php 2:28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
Php 2:29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
Php 2:30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

[quote]Simply put, everything GOOD comes from God, bad=satan. Affliction comes from satan, not because God wants us to live a miserable life.. What kind of witness is that?

Tell all of the unbelievers to come join us in a miserable life of sickness and poverty in the name of Christ and see what response you get. That is not the message of GOOD NEWS...
Yes, we will suffer through pain and affliction simply because we live in an imperfect world and suffer consequences of our decisions here on earth, but it is never God's desire for us to live anything but an ABUNDANT LIFE!

So you think the rose garden doesn't have thorns? Everything good comes from God and everything bad comes from satan. So when God sent His Son Jesus---that must have been a bad thing since He ended up crucified, and dying for all our sins? And when people have incredible wealth yet don't know Christ, that wealth must still come from God because wealthy "abundance" is only from God not satan?

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

God's chastisement is from Him and can come in many ways.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Affliction can come because of disobedience, but life in this imperfect world also allows for trials and tribulations. Who said that unless one is rolling in wealth they are miserable and are living less than an 'abundant' and victorious life in Christ? The love of money is the root of all evil. The disciples were sent out with nothing, and Jesus said He did not have a place to lay His head. Was He then a poor example of trusting and living for God? How about the apostles?

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
1Co 4:14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

Those who belong to Jesus Christ will suffer persecution.. Is that some of the information you don't want those who may come to Christ, to know about? That reality? And what of suffering persecution because of Christ in us, which all who live for Christ will endure, or not?

2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You wish to paint a picture of serving Christ without loss, trials, possible poverty, illness, death, persecution, destruction and life issues in general? What bubble would you be living in and what Scripture would support it? Resting in Christ is doing just that, in spite of all that could occur all around us and what may happen to us. We are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.

Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

splitting answer for size....

[/quot



Jesus said speaking to his disciples in John 9:1-3, was absolutely NOT saying that the works of God were manifest in this man's sickness, but that His works were manifest thru Jesus healing him from his affliction.

You are misunderstanding, and taking into your own understanding 98% of everything that has been said. And btw, you said some people have listened to Joseph Prince and found it unscriptural? Have YOU yourself sat down and listened or are you simply judging someone that is teaching about JESUS, by what others say. These are things the Pharisees did. Claiming that what Jesus was doing, by healing all the sick, raising the dead and giving abundant life was undoctrinal simply because they "thought" it wasn't the way it should've been done, or simply on the wrong day of the week.

"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us" (Mk. 9:38-40).

The fact is that Joseph Prince is spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. I've watched his teachings, I went down and saw him speak in Houston a few weeks ago. Every point he makes, he quotes a scripture along with it, so if you assume differently, you apparently have not watched him yourself but are going of others judgemental comments.
Either that, or you are offended by how he is doing it, (which is how the pharisees were with Jesus, btw) always looking for a way to prove someone wrong. Do you prefer arguing on doctrinal base or are you out there trying to spread the good news a Jesus and what he has done for us also?
We get nowhere worrying about differences and arguing and proving each other wrong, simply looking for bad in others. Joseph Prince is not spreading bad news that will send people to hell, so what are you in such strong opposition to one of your brothers in Christ for? Your smelling "rats" and seeing bad in others and what good are you doing by it? Are you glorifying God in any way? Because Joseph Prince never takes credit for himself. He always gives the glory to God, saying that the reason we are able to be where we are with God is because of what Jesus has done and because God loves us that much.

Before you jump on Joseph Prince or anyone else for that matter, watch his teachings yourself... Because his ENTIRE message, everything he speaks on is about how God loves us IN SPITE of our sinful nature and that Jesus takes our place in EVERYTHING, God sees us as righteous because he is looking at JESUS in our place! You are correct, we ourselves are unrighteous, but Jesus stands in our place and has made us righteous before God, and that is EXACTLY what Joseph Prince speaks on. So if he gives ALL the glory to God, then he is not falsely teaching, he is making it all about Jesus which we all should be doing not turning on each other, not looking for something wrong to jump on. That is like paparazzi jumping on any imperfection of a celebrity.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Words of Jesus... The woman should have been stoned according to "doctrine", but that's not what happened because of Jesus.
What is your opposition to Joseph Prince, or anyone else that is out there trying to spread the love of Jesus and His goodness, doing to win anyone to Jesus or further the kingdom?

And btw, while we are on Joseph Prince, using his salary as a weapon against him is offpoint also... If you did your research correctly, the $550,000 dollars that was paid out in the year of 2008 was never confirmed by the New Creation Church as Joseph Prince's pay check. It is recorded that while he was on payroll, he refused every raise that the church board tried to offer him. And Joseph Prince has been OFF of the church's payroll since 2009. He is a VOLUNTEER pastor now. That only further proves you and the others points of him being a pastor all about money as FALSE.
{Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them --as requested---if you have not done so, and which you have either totally disregarded following them or have chosen to disregard reading them as required--Vic}
He is truly in love with our Creator and wants to spread that good news with the world.

(11-12-2011 04:38 PM)kg18 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-12-2011 03:07 PM)Vic Wrote: [ -> ]kg18, In the future, please answer only one post at a time. It gets too confusing to answer several posts in one, especially if they are lengthy. And please answer my pm. Please also SHOW your version due to copyright. [/b] [/color]

Jesus said speaking to his disciples in John 9:1-3, was absolutely NOT saying that the works of God were manifest in this man's sickness, but that His works were manifest thru Jesus healing him from his affliction.

You are misunderstanding, and taking into your own understanding 98% of everything that has been said. And btw, you said some people have listened to Joseph Prince and found it unscriptural? Have YOU yourself sat down and listened or are you simply judging someone that is teaching about JESUS, by what others say. These are things the Pharisees did. Claiming that what Jesus was doing, by healing all the sick, raising the dead and giving abundant life was undoctrinal simply because they "thought" it wasn't the way it should've been done, or simply on the wrong day of the week.

"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us" (Mk. 9:38-40).

The fact is that Joseph Prince is spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. I've watched his teachings, I went down and saw him speak in Houston a few weeks ago. Every point he makes, he quotes a scripture along with it, so if you assume differently, you apparently have not watched him yourself but are going of others judgemental comments.
Either that, or you are offended by how he is doing it, (which is how the pharisees were with Jesus, btw) always looking for a way to prove someone wrong. Do you prefer arguing on doctrinal base or are you out there trying to spread the good news a Jesus and what he has done for us also?
We get nowhere worrying about differences and arguing and proving each other wrong, simply looking for bad in others. Joseph Prince is not spreading bad news that will send people to hell, so what are you in such strong opposition to one of your brothers in Christ for? Your smelling "rats" and seeing bad in others and what good are you doing by it? Are you glorifying God in any way? Because Joseph Prince never takes credit for himself. He always gives the glory to God, saying that the reason we are able to be where we are with God is because of what Jesus has done and because God loves us that much.

Before you jump on Joseph Prince or anyone else for that matter, watch his teachings yourself... Because his ENTIRE message, everything he speaks on is about how God loves us IN SPITE of our sinful nature and that Jesus takes our place in EVERYTHING, God sees us as righteous because he is looking at JESUS in our place! You are correct, we ourselves are unrighteous, but Jesus stands in our place and has made us righteous before God, and that is EXACTLY what Joseph Prince speaks on. So if he gives ALL the glory to God, then he is not falsely teaching, he is making it all about Jesus which we all should be doing not turning on each other, not looking for something wrong to jump on. That is like paparazzi jumping on any imperfection of a celebrity.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Words of Jesus... The woman should have been stoned according to "doctrine", but that's not what happened because of Jesus.
What is your opposition to Joseph Prince, or anyone else that is out there trying to spread the love of Jesus and His goodness, doing to win anyone to Jesus or further the kingdom?

And btw, while we are on Joseph Prince, using his salary as a weapon against him is offpoint also... If you did your research correctly, the $550,000 dollars that was paid out in the year of 2008 was never confirmed by the New Creation Church as Joseph Prince's pay check. It is recorded that while he was on payroll, he refused every raise that the church board tried to offer him. And Joseph Prince has been OFF of the church's payroll since 2009. He is a VOLUNTEER pastor now. That only further proves you and the others points of him being a pastor all about money as FALSE.
{Links removed--Newbies are NOT allowed to post links as per forum rules. PLease read them --as requested---if you have not done so, and which you have either totally disregarded following them or have chosen to disregard reading them as required--Vic}
He is truly in love with our Creator and wants to spread that good news with the world.

Take the first paragraph I said to you kg18 and apply it please. Answer my pm. Do your introduction in the proper thread and PLEASE READ THE ABOVE IN RED. If you had read the forum rules as you are required to read and abide them, this wouldn't be an issue now. Contact me immediately concerning your nic or your posting privileges will be eliminated. You've been warned twice now.

Then take the time to answer the Scriptures and questions I gave to you in those two posts instead of appealing on an emotional level.

Let's take a look at a few of Joseph Prince's [Joe]teachings, which according to kg18 are fully and completely Biblical. Just as an aside, from his newsletters, I noticed that in the first one I looked through, which was 20 pages, were 21 photos of Joe. And as they say, "one picture is worth a thousand words." I don't believe it's about Christ at all, despite some of the things stated. The problem with truth and error, is the error permeates like leaven, and which we are warned about.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

>he refers to himself as an apostle.
>word faith prosperity gospel--and admits there is no such thing as a prosperity gospel but proclaims health, wealth and prosperity as a God-given right.

Notice the difference in the stated beliefs from 2003 versus 2007, perhaps to appeal to a wider inclusive audience rather than merely charismatics or pentecostals:

Quote:The need of works after salvation to express gratitude and to "prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God" (Romans 12:2).
The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience and subsequent experience to enable the believer to live a life of power as a witness.

://web.archive.org/web/20030625130555/http://www.newcreation.org.sg/aboutusstatement.html

Quote:We believe that the Holy Spirit is our Comforter. He guides us in all areas of our lives. He also blesses us with spiritual gifts and empowers us to yield the fruit of the Spirit.

http://web.archive.org/web/2007082222305...elieve.htm

In 2009 the clear charismatic beliefs and catch phrases used in presenting him. Bolding by me:

Quote:...Joseph’s humorous, personal and practical style of preaching complements the fact that he is an anointed teacher of the Word of God. His dynamic messages have always been centred on the pure gospel of the grace of God based on the finished work of Jesus Christ. He moves in a strong worship anointing, ministering healing and prophetic words by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. ...Having built and established the leadership and congregation of New Creation Church on the finished work of Jesus Christ, Joseph is now actively fulfilling the mandate that God has given him to "Bring My Son Back to the Church".

http://web.archive.org/web/2009061620392..._wendy.htm

Since the Church is the Body of Christ, there is no Church without Him. He isn't and hasn't been missing. While there are varying degrees of committment and very many things done that are under the label of Christian, which having to do with Christ, those who belong to Him are known by Him and follow Him.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
continued.....