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Before we can determine if a specific movement is a cult, we must first define what a cult it is.

Nomad Man

(12-22-2008 09:52 PM)Nomad Man Wrote: [ -> ]Before we can determine if a specific movement is a cult, we must first define what a cult it is.

Nomad Man

A simplified definition would be a person or group who controls the flow of information. I hope you are not offended, but I see Hebrew Roots fitting into this category because of the pressure put on adherents to have a "Hebrew mind set" in order to comprehend God's Word. In doing so, the teachers then have a platform to "teach" what they do not know, while unsuspecting "students" smack their lips at the arsenic laced kool-aid they are being offered

(12-22-2008 10:04 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]A simplified definition would be a person or group who controls the flow of information. I hope you are not offended, but I see Hebrew Roots fitting into this category because of the pressure put on adherents to have a "Hebrew mind set" in order to comprehend God's Word. In doing so, the teachers then have a platform to "teach" what they do not know, while unsuspecting "students" smack their lips at the arsenic laced kool-aid they are being offered

No offense taken :-). But, I could say the same thing for Christianity, which controls the flow of Hebraic thought by saying it is not necessary and even condemning it, no offense :-). It is true that HRM push Hebrew thought, but Christianity pushes Greek thought. Is there a difference?

Nomad Man

(12-23-2008 02:27 AM)Nomad Man Wrote: [ -> ]No offense taken :-). But, I could say the same thing for Christianity, which controls the flow of Hebraic thought by saying it is not necessary and even condemning it, no offense :-). It is true that HRM push Hebrew thought, but Christianity pushes Greek thought. Is there a difference?

Nomad Man

I can't help but wonder how a Gentile raised in the US can claim to have a "hebraic mindset"

Actually Nomad Man, those who belong to Jesus Christ have the mind of Christ and "push His thoughts". .

1Co 2:12-16
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
(16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Are Christ's thoughts Greek thoughts then?

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Rom 8:5-10
(5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Is the Holy Spirit thinking Greek thoughts as well?

Rom 8:26-29
(26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:33-34
(33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Were the Apostles all Greeks then, and thinking Greek thoughts, when they wrote their letters to the believers, both Gentile and Jews? Peter? James? Paul? John? Mark?

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

1Pe 1:10-13
(10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
(11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.(13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Are you suggesting that the entire Bible, including both Old and New Testament is filled with errant thought because it was originally penned in Greek, or is mistranslated by those with Greek thought?

2Ti 3:16-17
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you have a Scripture that states that we can only understand the Scriptures from a "hebraic mindset"?
If so, where does one get that mindset, if it doesn't come from the Holy Spirit?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Has God given Christians a "greek mindset" from Himself for understanding Him?

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Did Abraham have a "greek mindset" or a "Hebrew mindset" or was it for something else that God blessed him?

Gal 3:6-9
(6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
(7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
(9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

And lastly...are you maintaining that you know that God expects us to know that He thinks, and speaks in Hebrew and no other language, and yet, we see that He created all languages?

Gen 11:7-9
(7) Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
(8) So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
(9) Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Do you know the mind of God in these things?

Isa 14:24-27
(24) The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
...(26) This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
(27) For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Rom 11:33-36
(33) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
(34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?(36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Rom 16:24-27
(24) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
(25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:(27) To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. <Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.>

<-----shining by simplicity
pssssssst did you know that God speaks dutch?
He does.........

EMJE

(12-23-2008 02:25 PM)Emjesown Wrote: [ -> ]<-----shining by simplicity
pssssssst did you know that God speaks dutch?
He does.........

EMJE

Really? Cause that makes sense when He made all the languages and caused separation into many peoples. Hmmm....wonder if Nomad Man knows that?

I suspect that there are levels of cultishness, so to speak. The fullblown universally acknowledged cults like Koreshs Waco group are typified by the 4 G Guns, Gold, Glory, Girls: Koresh was an arms freak - they had a gun range out back, he and other leaders impoverish their followers, they claim to be the unique work of God (hence the glory) and I heard he was a rapist when it came to his female congregants.

Some outfits are cults, in my view, if they only have 2 of the G's. The catholics have glory and gold, and papal infallibility is pure cultism. But papal infalibility is not confined to Rome. Many evangelicals defer to their pastor as if he were infallible - and here pastoral infallibillity is not modified with the caveats and conditions that Rome at least had the sense to put in place

For my view of cults is broader than the above, and therefore more outfits fit the definition. Even if the leader is by common definition an honest and humble man who lives on a modest salary from his church and is faithful to his wife the church he runs will be a cult if it is legalistic.

And all it takes to be legalistic is to be serious about religion and carnal minded.My old pastor fits this mould. A friend of mine left the church in anger because that church formed what they called a peace group. (I know, it sounds like new age fluff to me) but the pastor had to control it, and interfered in the running of it. Also, because he had definite ideas about church music - he likes stern marchy militant stuff - he tried to control the church music and tried to ban the stuff he thought reflected a feminization of the church, and provoked a fairly large schism as a result . This was about two years ago, I heard it from a friend i trust who still goes there. I left them in 1984 after this same pastor, who has now been there 40 years, told me that my opinions were to be dismissed as I had "mental problems before I even joined them" (which was true but utterly irrelevant)

To protect the guilty this church shall remain nameless.

So a church which is serious about religion, or spiritual things if you will, , but has carnal fruit, will be cultic to some degree.

And of course I am a pure cultist: too afraid to think for myself, suggestible, guilt ridden. Not a cult leader but a cult member

---

I think there is rigid stereotyping going on here.

Biblical thought is not Greek or Hebrew, it is spiritual. And spiritual is not immaterial asopposed to matter, it is righteous living in the material created world as opposed to unrighteousness in it. Moreover to reject any mindset outright is irrational, as every doctrine has some truth in it, it just takes effort to sort it out when it is easier to dump the lot.

Islam is the religion that insists that all converts must learn the language of the original claimed revelation: ie arabic. I see no need for this in the church. I hold that the translations are adequate and so have given up the need to go to the effort at my age to learn a language out of duty

BTW when i speak of christianity I NEVER mean church tgradition, I mean the body of pure doctrine contained in scripture. I do think this distinction is very important

But if the church got tainted with gnosticism, and I hold that it idid, and it lingers even now, this was because of their attitudes to the created world, not because of the language they spoke, AFter all the Kabbalists are gnostics as far as I see.

Of course my attitudew to life and matter was gnostic, I am not claiming superiority here

(12-27-2008 07:43 PM)strefanash Wrote: [ -> ]....

Biblical thought is not Greek or Hebrew, it is spiritual. And spiritual is not immaterial asopposed to matter, it is righteous living in the material created world as opposed to unrighteousness in it. Moreover to reject any mindset outright is irrational, as every doctrine has some truth in it, it just takes effort to sort it out when it is easier to dump the lot.

Islam is the religion that insists that all converts must learn the language of the original claimed revelation: ie arabic. I see no need for this in the church. I hold that the translations are adequate and so have given up the need to go to the effort at my age to learn a language out of duty

BTW when i speak of christianity I NEVER mean church tgradition, I mean the body of pure doctrine contained in scripture. I do think this distinction is very important

But if the church got tainted with gnosticism, and I hold that it idid, and it lingers even now, this was because of their attitudes to the created world, not because of the language they spoke, AFter all the Kabbalists are gnostics as far as I see.

Of course my attitudew to life and matter was gnostic, I am not claiming superiority here

Well Strefanash, despite your claims of being messed up all the time--you seem to see things quite clearly at times.

To place anyone as in authority over yourself---other than Jesus Christ, allows for that person to exert their will and beliefs over you. And yes, pastors and their followers are as guilty as any.

We are not to make man our help--we are to trust God and follow the Only Good Shepherd--our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

What exactly is a cult ???


One of my aunts mothers was in a cult.

It was a jehovah witness cult. Her father molested children in the church, and she was excommunicated because she liked to celebrate holidays, and thought the religion was BS.

Pretty ironic that her father was the priest, molesting children, and kicked her out of the church.

Anyways, a cult, unlike a religion, is really just crazy. It's a group of people where if you don't follow their beliefs, you're basically dead to them.