The book of Job is a favorite of atheists and haters of the True God of Israel because they can use it to "prove" that if there is a God, He is a cruel dictator for allowing an innocent man to suffer and allowing innocents in general to suffer. Believers know that no mature humans are truly innocent, but why does God allow Satan to inflict suffering on people, particularly children, who haven't done anything to deserve it?
Jesus was the only innocent Man, and He suffered more than anyone, and Scripture says that Believers will suffer as Jesus did and that it is a blessing to suffer persecution for being a Believer. I assume that Believers are persecuted because Satan is the god of this world at this time. How do I explain the book of Job and "why does God allow innocents to suffer if He is good/if He is omnipotent/if He exists" to non-believers, as well as why animals kill each other, why we inherited a world of evil from Adam and Eve, et cetera ad nauseam? I was talking about this yesterday with one of my roommates who is an atheist. (Please pray for him--I do and my aunt and her prayer group do.) I need a "non-stammering" reply for unbelievers who ask.
(01-29-2010 01:08 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: [ -> ]The book of Job is a favorite of atheists and haters of the True God of Israel because they can use it to "prove" that if there is a God, He is a cruel dictator for allowing an innocent man to suffer and allowing innocents in general to suffer. Believers know that no mature humans are truly innocent, but why does God allow Satan to inflict suffering on people, particularly children, who haven't done anything to deserve it?
Jesus was the only innocent Man, and He suffered more than anyone, and Scripture says that Believers will suffer as Jesus did and that it is a blessing to suffer persecution for being a Believer. I assume that Believers are persecuted because Satan is the god of this world at this time. How do I explain the book of Job and "why does God allow innocents to suffer if He is good/if He is omnipotent/if He exists" to non-believers, as well as why animals kill each other, why we inherited a world of evil from Adam and Eve, et cetera ad nauseam? I was talking about this yesterday with one of my roommates who is an atheist. (Please pray for him--I do and my aunt and her prayer group do.) I need a "non-stammering" reply for unbelievers who ask.
Just who and how many should God save, protect, heal? Is He required to take care of everyone? Make bullets stop? Stop the alcoholic from drinking? Stop genetic diseases from causing birth defects? Euthanize the old? make eunuchs out of perverts? Should God just keep delivering people constantly? Should He stop defective merchandise from being produced so that a child is not harmed? Should He create kazillions of dollars so we are all rich? Why does He allow us to make food so that we eat more than we should? Why is there chocolate [such a temptation 
]? Can we live in a perfect world or would people turn evil anyway? Is there such a place as utopia?
It's not about what God won't do, but what He has done 
(01-30-2010 12:45 PM)YYZ Skinhead Wrote: [ -> ] (01-30-2010 12:01 AM)sheep wrecked Wrote: [ -> ]Just who and how many should God save, protect, heal? Is He required to take care of everyone? Make bullets stop? Stop the alcoholic from drinking? Stop genetic diseases from causing birth defects? Euthanize the old? make eunuchs out of perverts? Should God just keep delivering people constantly? Should He stop defective merchandise from being produced so that a child is not harmed? Should He create kazillions of dollars so we are all rich? Why does He allow us to make food so that we eat more than we should? Why is there chocolate [such a temptation ]? Can we live in a perfect world or would people turn evil anyway? Is there such a place as utopia?
It's not about what God won't do, but what He has done
You won't mind if I use that, will you? With author credit if you want. 
It's not "mine" no need for "credit" So go right ahead! You can even tweak it a bit
That’s a great post Sheep.If God did truly intervene in every situation how would we be tested and perfected.How would we grow?
One of the first things I learnt from the book of Job is that we can all profess to love God and follow him but when stressful times come this is when the true faith is tested.We all know this but the dialogue between God and Satan comfirms to me that indeed we are being tested.
The book of Job also addresses the reality that despite all the OT biblical of admonitions of do good and get blessed…good people had things go wrong and things that seemed unfair happened to them.All Job's friends try to offer reasons for his suffering and end up making Job feel worse than if they hadn’t said anything at all.
This has helped me in my own walks of life when dealing with those suffering and sick.
Job asks the same questions we often heard ask- Why does a loving God allow such extreme suffering? And we forget that the other issue which is going on at the same time is that Job's faith is being tested.Its not God that’s on trial here its Job.
The book of Job offers no actual answer as to why the suffering(except to show that we are being tested ) but it does give me comfort that God really is watching. And that there is more behind the scenes spiritually speaking than what we see with our earthly eyes.And that eventually we do end up more blessed than before.Like Job did.Though at the same time I don’t see that the main point of the whole thing is that we end up more blessed.Instead I think its to do with how our faith measures up when its really tested.
It also helped/helps me to see that oftentimes we are not suffering because of some sin that we committed or because we don’t believe enough but because of having to be tested.Its something that we all go through as believers.
I see Job echoing the cries of the discples when they said
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Job refused to give up on God even when he didn’t understand why he was suffering in the way he was.
Im also reminded of Abraham when he persisted and trusted that God would provide the lamb as he made his way up the mountain.
Are we too also able to trust God even when everything is going wrong and we really are having nothing to gain from it and may often see to be losing..Very often I found that our faith can be selfish when you analyse it enough.We believe and do good because we think we will be rewarded.Whether here in this life or eventually with eternal life.But are we really loving and holding onto God when we aren’t being rewarded and things aren’t going the way we like.I believe that that is kind of what the book of Job also addresses.
I also learnt from Job that it is alright to question God,to cry out to him that it all seems unfair and that God understands all these frustrations and sympathises.Much the way a mother might suffer when her child has to endure a painful procedure which will eventually be curative.
Wow. This is all the kind of stuff I was looking for. I ought to have posted this question earlier. (Rose, can I use yours, too?)
Of course
As I've said before, my husband is an atheist. Years ago, when I asked him to read the bible, he said "I have, I read Job," and he pointed out to me how Job's suffering was an arrangement between God and Satan, and "what kind of god would do that?"
I hadn't spent much time in Job at that point in my life and I had no answer for him. We've never discussed it since, but I have spent more time in Job. While it remains difficult to talk to my husband about these things specifically, I hope that now if an atheist asks me about Job I would be more confident to ask them some of the following questions:
Have you read through the whole book of Job, or did you stop after the first few verses?
What do you think of what his friends had to say?
What do you think of what God says when He speaks to Job?
Do you agree with this: " Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.? " (Job 5 vs 7).
What is your explanation for evil, and will it ever end?
I would then ask them to also look at the temptation of Christ in the gospels: Matt 4 1-11; Mark 1: 12-13; Luke 4: 1-13. and compare with the book of Job.
I would ask: can you say, like Job, in the midst of trouble: " For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.."? (Job 19:25)
(01-31-2010 01:07 AM)Mary Wrote: [ -> ]As I've said before, my husband is an atheist. Years ago, when I asked him to read the bible, he said "I have, I read Job," and he pointed out to me how Job's suffering was an arrangement between God and Satan, and "what kind of god would do that?"
I hadn't spent much time in Job at that point in my life and I had no answer for him. We've never discussed it since, but I have spent more time in Job. While it remains difficult to talk to my husband about these things specifically, I hope that now if an atheist asks me about Job I would be more confident to ask them some of the following questions:
Have you read through the whole book of Job, or did you stop after the first few verses?
What do you think of what his friends had to say?
What do you think of what God says when He speaks to Job?
Do you agree with this: " Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.? " (Job 5 vs 7).
What is your explanation for evil, and will it ever end?
I would then ask them to also look at the temptation of Christ in the gospels: Matt 4 1-11; Mark 1: 12-13; Luke 4: 1-13. and compare with the book of Job.
I would ask: can you say, like Job, in the midst of trouble: " For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.."? (Job 19:25)
Evil exists - Paul said ... when i try to do good ... evil is right there besides me.
satan has access to the realms of man
how Job responded did not alter how God himself is
we CANT contaminate god with our sinfullness, but He can contaminate us with his holiness.
In the end and even at the begining of Kobs trials - IT WAS GOD WHO DECIDED WHO WAS AND WHERE RIGHTEOUSNESS LAY
of all Jobs counsellors - the youngest - extoled the greatness of god - it was this that cracked the nut of Jobs mystery
previously - like the rest of us - we think we know - and understand
Job caME TO KNOW - that he thought he knew
but he now knew he did not
so he covers his mouth less any more foolishenss - without - understanding comes forth.
it the sovereignty and calling and choosing of God in the midst of and despite mans attempts
to scupper and strangle with the cords of criticism
in God ther is no darkness
and our light is depoendent and secure IN THAT.
Job 9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
as i read Pauls thoughts in the Romans verse above - i saw a black, solid iron bar - about 10 foot long and 3 inches wide and and inch deep. it reporesented the righteousness of god - unmovable!unbendable!unbreakable!unmoving!?
i then saw the bar begin to bend
as if it were liquorice, soft and pliable
and whilst still iron
it was shaped into the most marvelous wrought iron scrolled shapes, very much like you get in iron gates or low iron fences.
we have an idea of evil, sin and righteousness
and we tend to see first the law - and because of that our thoughts christian or unbelievers are frozen solid and rigid - just like that bar
but oh how unsearchable, past finding out???
in itself yes
but in each and every circumstance and set of situations even and espaecially Jobs
we can see God bending, without changing - light in a dark world - goodness despite sin, rightness despite wrongness.
and as we search and ask - we encounter not just the exrernal of God, but his internal
His own self
and through what we encounter, in the world like job
it is GOD who decides - for he puts us in touch with the external (worlds effects) - that puts us in touch with our INTERNAL - which pushes us in touch towards the ETERNAL