Is this true?
In the thread on British Israelism Ekklesia says that John 3:16 does not mean Jesus came for all mankind.
The British Israel thread has become very long and confusing, so I would prefer to deal with the issue in a separate thread, and just finish up some other points in that thread, and then deal with , Noah, the ark and baptism here.
Ekklesia wrote:
Mary, I've already answered this, but you are not satisfied with my answer, so I'll try again, in a slightly different way so that you may see it from a sligly different perspective (you may not still like my answer though; but please gauge if its is biblical)
The verse is this [John 3:16] "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
What does this mean? I believe you think it means "God so loved all people of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son ... but the word 'world' here in Greek is κόσμος (kosmos G2889) which does not mean "all the people of the world", rather it means all of creation (We get the English word 'cosmos' from this Greek word 'kosmos').
So the first part says "God so loved His creation, that He sent His only begotten Son .."
Before we go further, I want you to see that this is biblical: Who created the universe, and everything in it? Jesus did. [Col 1:15] says "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." so 'the world', all creation, is worth loving since Jesus in righteousness, created it in righteousness (recall that God saw that it was 'good' (because it was created 'good'), God loved his own handiwork, we can see this in that Adam stood shamelessly before God).
What is wrong with creation, that God would have to send his Son to save it? [Rom 8:22] says "For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now." (for man's redemption). So the creation that God so loved (and which included humanity) could be salvaged by redeeming man specifically.
Tell me if you disagree with me up to this point; God so loved creation (which was groaning under the weight of man's sin) that he sent his only begotten son (to redeem man), and save all creation. If you agree, lets look at the redemption of man.
[Gen 6:5-6] says "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart."
Do you agree, the problem here isn't creation, but man? Let me ask you a question; when creation was groaning under the weigh of sin in the days of Noah, did God offer redemption to ALL men? No.
[Gen 6:19] says "And of every living thing of ALL flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you." Clearly, ALL flesh isn't being saved, but only those who entered the ark.
So, if God so loves 'the world', that he sent His only begotten son, is he offering redemption to ALL men though His Son? No, he is offering it ONLY to those who enter the ark. In the case of Jesus, what is 'the ark'?
[1 Peter 3:20-21] gives the answer ".. because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ .."
[2 Peter 2:5] says ".. if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought ya flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
Baptism in Christ, is entering the Ark, but did God save members from all families on earth when He saved Noah? If Noah's ark is a perfect signpost to baptism in Christ, tell me, do you really believe that God has changed the rules? Now you tell me whether ALL means everyone, or only the family in the ark?
You asked me 'What does ALL mean?'. If God says ALL who enter the ark will be saved, my answer would be 'ONLY those entered enter the ark.
Before you object saying 'Yes but any person of any tribe, nation, or tongue, can be baptized in Christ', let me point out that the invitation to enter the ark also went out to everyone in the days of Noah, but it was only Noah who did, because Noah had 'faith' God's word was true. It took the greater part of Noah's life to build the ark, and all this time, and through so great a witness as Noah's faith, it was still only Noah "who heard his shepherd's voice". The world was Noah's faith, because he believed, and they did not. [Hebrews 11:7] says "By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.".
Why do I keep citing Jesus' words saying "My sheep hear my voice", or "I know my sheep and my sheep know me"? Because like in the days of Noah, everyone will hear God's call, but His sheep respond in faith; and you cannot simply ignore who the bible says are His sheep (as you are doing here).
If you're want me to concede that Jesus' gospel is to go to the ends of the world, to every ear, I'll happily agree. But if you want me to say everyone, or even anyone will be saved, I must stick to the biblical position, which is that only the family in the ark will be saved (because only the family in the ark exhibited faith).
Rose deals with the meaning of creation in her post number 96 in the British Israelism thread.
Ekklesia brings up a number of points, and I think the central error along with the other errors discussed, which causes confusion and misunderstanding is that BI teaching seems to ignore the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is seen in Ekklesia's comparison of the ark and the flood with baptism.
Ekklesia says that the "world" was Noah's faith ie limited to Noah only, and she quotes Hebrews 11:7 : By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. However, if we look at Hebrews 11: verse 6:
" But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
This fits with the broader context that Jesus came for all mankind. All have the option to diligently seek him, to believe, and he will reward them, as Jesus showed by example.
Mary,
Is your heart hardened towards the world that God loves? Or His children that He formed in the womb in His own image? Do you realize that even though only few were spared on the ark (seven of each animal, why did the other animals die because they weren't baptised or because God just wanted to start over), that was still only the first death that they were spared and only temporary for all have sinned and the consequence of sin is death, even Noah and the 7 others eventually died. If anything the Noah story shows that salvation for all mankind was provided through a few righteous, that the reign of man continued on even today and God promised to never flood the world again like that. And wasn't one of the factors that people were living a thousand years, fallen angels were having children with humans and forming giants in the world, after the flood God established a short lifespan for humans and prevented angels and human babies (things changed according to God's will).
You talk about the shepherd and his sheep, but you want to limit it, Jesus himself said that (John 10:16) I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. Then in Luke 15 Jesus states that any shepherd would go after the one missing sheep until he had them ALL. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and his flock is the WHOLE WORLD, so why would you want to believe he would abandon anyone?
"Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." Psalms 2:8 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand." John 3:35
"Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." John 17:2
So as all of mankind lost "LIFE" through Adam, all of mankind was spared destruction through Noah, all of mankind was given the promise of "LIFE" through Jesus.
As for Baptism, there is only one baptism, the water has no power, it's the blood of Jesus that redeemed the whole world. Baptism of the holy spirit is the real baptism and I believe everyone will recieve it Romans 14:11. So do you really think that one of the sheep will still be lost and in the end Jesus fails? Or do you think that salvation through Jesus was adequate and God's will has/will be done. Even if you think Jesus' death was not good enough for the salvation of the world (even though he died for all our sins, and we're saved by grace) shouldn't you still pray / hope / believe in salvation for the whole world because that's what God wants, and we read in the bible where God has spared the whole world because of ONE person (yes Noah) so even if you thought Jesus wasn't good enough you could still plead with God to spare your fellow humans, isn't that what it means to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR anyways and didn't Abraham plead with God to spare an entire city and God listened and agreed? What if all christians pleaded for the salvation of the whole world rather than passing judgement on others and telling them they are going to be supremely punished, don't you think this world would be a better place to live, don't you think Christians would have a better reputation, and don't you think Christians would be living closer to how Jesus taught us to live and treat others?
(07-21-2011 12:33 AM)prayerwarrior35 Wrote: [ -> ]Mary,
Is your heart hardened towards the world that God loves? Or His children that He formed in the womb in His own image? Do you realize that even though only few were spared on the ark (seven of each animal, why did the other animals die because they weren't baptised or because God just wanted to start over), that was still only the first death that they were spared and only temporary for all have sinned and the consequence of sin is death, even Noah and the 7 others eventually died. If anything the Noah story shows that salvation for all mankind was provided through a few righteous, that the reign of man continued on even today and God promised to never flood the world again like that. And wasn't one of the factors that people were living a thousand years, fallen angels were having children with humans and forming giants in the world, after the flood God established a short lifespan for humans and prevented angels and human babies (things changed according to God's will).
You talk about the shepherd and his sheep, but you want to limit it, Jesus himself said that (John 10:16) I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. Then in Luke 15 Jesus states that any shepherd would go after the one missing sheep until he had them ALL. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and his flock is the WHOLE WORLD, so why would you want to believe he would abandon anyone?
"Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." Psalms 2:8 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand." John 3:35
"Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." John 17:2
So as all of mankind lost "LIFE" through Adam, all of mankind was spared destruction through Noah, all of mankind was given the promise of "LIFE" through Jesus.
As for Baptism, there is only one baptism, the water has no power, it's the blood of Jesus that redeemed the whole world. Baptism of the holy spirit is the real baptism and I believe everyone will recieve it Romans 14:11. So do you really think that one of the sheep will still be lost and in the end Jesus fails? Or do you think that salvation through Jesus was adequate and God's will has/will be done. Even if you think Jesus' death was not good enough for the salvation of the world (even though he died for all our sins, and we're saved by grace) shouldn't you still pray / hope / believe in salvation for the whole world because that's what God wants, and we read in the bible where God has spared the whole world because of ONE person (yes Noah) so even if you thought Jesus wasn't good enough you could still plead with God to spare your fellow humans, isn't that what it means to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR anyways and didn't Abraham plead with God to spare an entire city and God listened and agreed? What if all christians pleaded for the salvation of the whole world rather than passing judgement on others and telling them they are going to be supremely punished, don't you think this world would be a better place to live, don't you think Christians would have a better reputation, and don't you think Christians would be living closer to how Jesus taught us to live and treat others?
So what do you think Hebrews 11: 6 means?
Did you read the thread on British Israelism at all before joining this one?
(07-21-2011 12:59 AM)Mary Wrote: [ -> ]So what do you think Hebrews 11: 6 means?
Did you read the thread on British Israelism at all before joining this one?
No I didn't read the other thread, sorry.
A co-worker who served in the military told me that in the trenches when death was imminent that even the hardcore atheists were praying. I believe deep down that all humans have faith in their creator even if they try to convince themselves otherwise. But still, living a good life and treating others well and doing so in the name of Jesus will lead more people toward faith than screaming at them with a bullhorn saying your going to burn in hell, WWJD?
(07-20-2011 10:39 PM)Mary Wrote: [ -> ]Ekklesia wrote:
Mary, I've already answered this, but you are not satisfied with my answer, so I'll try again, in a slightly different way so that you may see it from a sligly different perspective (you may not still like my answer though; but please gauge if its is biblical)
The verse is this [John 3:16] "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
What does this mean? I believe you think it means "God so loved all people of the world, that he gave his only begotten Son ... but the word 'world' here in Greek is κόσμος (kosmos G2889) which does not mean "all the people of the world", rather it means all of creation (We get the English word 'cosmos' from this Greek word 'kosmos').
So the first part says "God so loved His creation, that He sent His only begotten Son .."
Before we go further, I want you to see that this is biblical: Who created the universe, and everything in it? Jesus did. [Col 1:15] says "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." so 'the world', all creation, is worth loving since Jesus in righteousness, created it in righteousness (recall that God saw that it was 'good' (because it was created 'good'), God loved his own handiwork, we can see this in that Adam stood shamelessly before God).
What is wrong with creation, that God would have to send his Son to save it? [Rom 8:22] says "For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now." (for man's redemption). So the creation that God so loved (and which included humanity) could be salvaged by redeeming man specifically.
Tell me if you disagree with me up to this point; God so loved creation (which was groaning under the weight of man's sin) that he sent his only begotten son (to redeem man), and save all creation. If you agree, lets look at the redemption of man.
[Gen 6:5-6] says "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart."
Do you agree, the problem here isn't creation, but man? Let me ask you a question; when creation was groaning under the weigh of sin in the days of Noah, did God offer redemption to ALL men? No.
[Gen 6:19] says "And of every living thing of ALL flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you." Clearly, ALL flesh isn't being saved, but only those who entered the ark.
So, if God so loves 'the world', that he sent His only begotten son, is he offering redemption to ALL men though His Son? No, he is offering it ONLY to those who enter the ark. In the case of Jesus, what is 'the ark'?
[1 Peter 3:20-21] gives the answer ".. because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ .."
[2 Peter 2:5] says ".. if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought ya flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
Baptism in Christ, is entering the Ark, but did God save members from all families on earth when He saved Noah? If Noah's ark is a perfect signpost to baptism in Christ, tell me, do you really believe that God has changed the rules? Now you tell me whether ALL means everyone, or only the family in the ark?
You asked me 'What does ALL mean?'. If God says ALL who enter the ark will be saved, my answer would be 'ONLY those entered enter the ark.
Before you object saying 'Yes but any person of any tribe, nation, or tongue, can be baptized in Christ', let me point out that the invitation to enter the ark also went out to everyone in the days of Noah, but it was only Noah who did, because Noah had 'faith' God's word was true. It took the greater part of Noah's life to build the ark, and all this time, and through so great a witness as Noah's faith, it was still only Noah "who heard his shepherd's voice". The world was Noah's faith, because he believed, and they did not. [Hebrews 11:7] says "By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.".
Why do I keep citing Jesus' words saying "My sheep hear my voice", or "I know my sheep and my sheep know me"? Because like in the days of Noah, everyone will hear God's call, but His sheep respond in faith; and you cannot simply ignore who the bible says are His sheep (as you are doing here).
If you're want me to concede that Jesus' gospel is to go to the ends of the world, to every ear, I'll happily agree. But if you want me to say everyone, or even anyone will be saved, I must stick to the biblical position, which is that only the family in the ark will be saved (because only the family in the ark exhibited faith).
Before proceeding to discuss Ekklesia's view as above, my position on Baptism is as follows:
Baptism does not save you. Thus I do not agree with "baptismal regeneration".
Baptism is a symbol of having accepted Christ's death and resurrection, and of repentance of our personal sins. It is a public declaration of our salvation in Christ and symbolizes His death on the cross; immersion in water; and coming up out of the water: His resurrection. It shows that we have new life in Him.
Romans 6:3 -4.
Once baptised, we need to move on and grow spiritually.
Heb 6: 2
Since it was in reaction to a comment I made, I'll explain.
First, a disclaimer: though I made the comments, the idea that baptism is implicit in the Noahide covenant comes from Peter himself.
He says in [1 Peter 3:21] that baptism corresponds to God's saving Noah and his family from death by safely bringing them through water as an appeal to God for a good conscience (through the resurrection of Jesus Christ).
In this verse, Peter likens Christ to the ark, just as Christ's wrath is implied in the flood. (I assume no one in these forums would disagree that the water of life metaphore is Christ?). Just as Christ's grace saves, so his wrath (of judgement) will lead to eternal damnation.
Because Christ is found in both the (flood of) water and the (saving) ark, the noahide covenant clearly points forward to baptism, for only by trusting in God was Noah saved. This was his appeal for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Our baptism then, is a new covenant symbol of circumicision of our heart appealing to Christ's mercy to save us from judgement.
(07-20-2011 11:59 PM)Mary Wrote: [ -> ]Ekklesia brings up a number of points, and I think the central error along with the other errors discussed, which causes confusion and misunderstanding is that BI teaching seems to ignore the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is seen in Ekklesia's comparison of the ark and the flood with baptism.
I missed this comment Mary. It's the first time I've seen this claim.
Have I, at any point, failed to appreciate the resurrection of Christ?
I don't think so.
The belief that
Christian's are Israel does not deny that Christ's blood is the only way one can be found spotless before God. Believe about what the Sherdherd did to redeem the sheep, is not the same thing as belief about who the flock is today; the two are separate issues.
I remember specifically pointing out that Christ was THE
pascal lamb, THE
perfect blood sacrifice, and THE
Jubilee all in one. Futhermore I have never denied my complete faith in the atoning work of Christ as the means to salvation.
If you have reason to believe I've ignored the resurrection of Jesus Christ, please put forth your evidence, and hold me accountable, otherwise recognize that this claim you've made above, is a false one.
For the record howerver:
I believe Christ's death, and resurrection are central to the New Covenant. WRT baptism specifically, entering baptismal water represents death [Rom 6:4][Col 2:12] and coming out of baptismal water represents resurrection into new life, just as exiting Noah's ark represented new life. (None of this contradicts a belief that Christian's are Israelites)