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RE: Tithing - Vic - 07-24-2009 08:59 PM
(07-24-2009 08:35 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: Vic,
Why don't you understand that a pastor teacher is a special call. It is different than your call, much different. Trust me I know! Pastors are worthy of their wage. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't tell us to #1 appoint them and #2 to compensate them. You are in error my sister. I am so sorry to have to break that to you. I will pray that God may open your eyes to the truth. Maybe He will!
Chris, every person has a special call in Christ. First, that He called us in the first place. Every part of the Body has it's own special purpose. One part isn't better than the other. You know the Scriptures on this, don't you? All work together to help the Body grow--yet is God that does the growth. I have no problem with people supporting someone working fulltime preaching the Word.
What I have a problem with is the needed and demanded elevation--not respect---elevation of individuals where the focus is on them instead of Christ. Your position is hand in hand with teacher--teacher of the Word---equipping the saints. But equipping them for what Chris? To be dependent on you or to have them equipped so they can go and be soldiers of Christ in whatever capacity they are called by God to do. Too many are being made dependent on the pastor--and many like that arrangement--and it is not Biblical. Our dependence is fully on Christ. Everything after that is for edification of fellow believers. And then for reaching others for Christ.
I fellowship with more Christians on this website/forum from all over the world--and encourage and am encouraged by so many. Including pastors. I reach more for Christ this way than I ever could sitting on a pew. That is what God has called me to. If I was immature in the Lord or knowledge of particular things---I would not be able to do these things. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to think I am doing God's will. But my husband and I have the peace and knowledge this is what He wants us to do. It is our ministry. Everyone has one. Many miss it because they look first to people instead of Christ.
I suspect I am old enough to be your mom Chris--and have known the Lord for almost 40 yrs. I am not a babe in the Lord. It has not come easy--but I have grown. That's the goal of equipping the saints. So they stand fully dependent in Christ, fully wearing the armour of God, and doing His will. What more could a pastor want for those he is supposed to point to Christ?
And whether you suffer doing God's will---join the club. All those who do serve Christ will suffer...You are not unique in suffering and you need to quit thinking you are. Without partiality Chris...without being a respector of persons, position, title...we all are to love one another and esteem others better than ourselves. That's what it's about. And you need to quit worrying about getting paid, or getting possessions or getting what you think others have better than you. Because if you don't any witness you have goes down the tubes. Because your focus appears to be of the flesh and worldly instead of on Christ, and believing and knowing He takes care of all our needs. Including yours.
RE: Tithing - Rose of Shushan - 07-24-2009 09:06 PM
I dont see anyone condemning you instead I suppose that they, like me, hope that you will come to realise what you are coming across like.And that it will help you to grow in your spiritual walk.We are to encourage exhort and look after one another. So chris if we see certain things (and all of us here think independently and it was obvious to a few of us) is it condemnation to warn you of these things.On the contrary we are all chipping in to help you see how your position and attitude may be hindering your walk instead of helping it.
I agree with what vic wrote but I hope you will take it all prayerfully and again look at the Scriptures that you are using to justify living off the congregation.
RE: Tithing - Vic - 07-24-2009 09:07 PM
(07-24-2009 08:51 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: Rose,
You are kind but this is not love
"What you have done in your posts Chris, is shown an overblown ego and self importance, and a desire to covet wordly things through tithes for what you feel you deserve being a pastor."
Its called condemnation.
Actually Chris, you are being judgmental about the intent behind my comment. Whether you like it or not, view it as unloving or whatever--that is what many of your posts have conveyed. I spend a lot of time analysing things. And have reread the posts most of the day---and that is what is conveyed in your posts. Aside from the wrong accusation of everyone here hating pastors. But think what you wish Chris.
RE: Tithing - Liberated by Faith - 07-24-2009 09:12 PM
It only seems like Chris is coming across as wrong because of the obvious disdain from others for local assemblies that God has instituted and for pastors that God called for the perfecting of the saints and the work of the ministry and the edification of the Church.
RE: Tithing - sheep wrecked - 07-24-2009 09:19 PM
(07-24-2009 09:12 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: It only seems like Chris is coming across as wrong because of the obvious disdain from others for local assemblies that God has instituted and for pastors that God called for the perfecting of the saints and the work of the ministry and the edification of the Church.
Liberated,
Please show from Scripture that a pastor is instituted for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry and the edification of the church. Not elder/bishop, but pastor. You are aware that an elder and a pastor are not the same position in the church, so why are you and Chris using pastor to equal an elder in the texts that have been presented?
RE: Tithing - Vic - 07-24-2009 09:36 PM
(07-24-2009 09:12 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: It only seems like Chris is coming across as wrong because of the obvious disdain from others for local assemblies that God has instituted and for pastors that God called for the perfecting of the saints and the work of the ministry and the edification of the Church.
Wrong! Chris came across wrong because of his bad attitude and attacking all the posters when he first started posting. He came across that way by choice. He said later he came on with guns blazing and acted rashly. He knows he was in the wrong and he did behave shamefully and certainly not as a witness of Christ. Those are the facts.
RE: Tithing - Liberated by Faith - 07-24-2009 09:42 PM
(07-24-2009 09:19 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:Ephesians 4.(07-24-2009 09:12 PM)Liberated by Faith Wrote: It only seems like Chris is coming across as wrong because of the obvious disdain from others for local assemblies that God has instituted and for pastors that God called for the perfecting of the saints and the work of the ministry and the edification of the Church.
Liberated,
Please show from Scripture that a pastor is instituted for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry and the edification of the church. Not elder/bishop, but pastor. You are aware that an elder and a pastor are not the same position in the church, so why are you and Chris using pastor to equal an elder in the texts that have been presented?
Study to show yourselves approved unto God.
RE: Tithing - heb13-13 - 07-24-2009 10:06 PM
Tithing - Part I
It is not easy for us to change a basic belief. And it should not be easy. But we should be willing to investigate any and every doctrine that we have been taught by the light of God's Word. And we should be willing to change if, indeed, we discover that what we have been taught is not based on a sound interpretation of scripture.
Jesus had to confront spiritual leaders of His day by saying:
Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Many of these spiritual leaders did not know that they were teaching wrong doctrine until Jesus confronted them with the truth. And when confronted with the truth, many of them changed their teaching to line up with the truth that they learned from Jesus. But many did not. Many of those spiritual leaders were not willing to consider the possibility that they were wrong. After all,they were teaching what they had been taught by their fathers for many generations past. After all, they reasoned, if their doctrines were wrong, it would have been corrected many years before.
Many people believe and teach that tithing is a requirement of New Testament believers. Some do this out of pure motive and I am only speculating mind you, but some *MAY* not do this out of pure motive. I don't know for sure, but the system of tithing is a dangerous one that could appeal to the flesh very easily.
Many are really convinced that this teaching is accurate and scriptural (I am not writing this to question your motives). Most have sincere, pure motives in teaching tithing, but they are wrong, and it is harmful to teach something that is wrong. If truth makes us free then error puts us in bondage. John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
The problem is this: To conclude that tithing is a part of the new covenant (New Testament), one must violate sound principles of biblical interpretation. But this has been done for so long and so routinely, that most people are not even aware that they are doing it.
If you look up the word "tithe" in Cruden's Complete Concordance to the Old and New Testaments you will find this.
"The practice of paying tithes is very ancient:for we find, Gen 14:20, that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, king of Salem, at his return from...
There were three sorts of tithes (bold are my words) to be paid from the people (besides those from the Levites to the priests); (1) To the Levites, for their maintenance, Num 18:21,24; (2) For the Lord's feasts and sacrifices, to be eaten in the place which the Lord should choose to put his name there Deut. 14:22-24; (3) Besides these two, there was to be, every third year, a tithe for the poor, to be eaten in their own dwellings. Deut. 14:28,29"
In the New Testament, neither Jesus nor the Apostles have commanded anything in this affair of tithes.
Did you know that there were 3 kinds of tithes? Did you know that there is no command whatsoever in the New Testament about tithing?
Let me end this piece on tithing with this statement:
I am not against GIVING. I am against telling people that they must PAY.
There is a huge difference between the two. The NT teaches giving not paying.
To teach the Law will only result in believers being put in bondage. And the bondage of legalism will be harmful to the spiritual well being of any believer. This is true in the area of giving as well as any other area.
Tithing was an important part of the Old Testament Law. But it has no place in New Testament Grace.
Galatians 5:1 is our trumpet cry.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
I think next, I will deal with the Logic Argument that I always hear.
Tithing was practiced before the Law, was made a part of the Law, and, therefore, should be practiced after the Law.
Those that teach tithing do so on this point of logic and 3 verses.
God bless you,
Rick
RE: Tithing - pastor_chris - 07-25-2009 01:43 AM
Vic said, "Wrong! Chris came across wrong because of his bad attitude and attacking all the posters when he first started posting. He came across that way by choice. He said later he came on with guns blazing and acted rashly. He knows he was in the wrong and he did behave shamefully and certainly not as a witness of Christ. Those are the facts. "
Vic,
To offer an apology is a tremendously humiliating act and the above words felt like you were rubbing my nose in my own act of contrition and reconciliation. Saying that I acted 'shaemfully' is pretty strong. Flat out Vic, why would you speak that way? I do not understand you. You take an act of kindness and you make it ugly by bashing the person who offered and apology. I am sure you'll tell me how wrong I am but so far the only person on this blog willing to admit that they have said anything inappropriate is me.
I am stunned at how confrontational and uncharitable you are. Now I think I understand why you dont go to a church.
RE: Tithing - Rose of Shushan - 07-25-2009 06:40 AM
Quote:To offer an apology is a tremendously humiliating act and the above words felt like you were rubbing my nose in my own act of contrition and reconciliation. Saying that I acted 'shaemfully' is pretty strong. Flat out Vic, why would you speak that way? I do not understand you. You take an act of kindness and you make it ugly by bashing the person who offered and apology. I am sure you'll tell me how wrong I am but so far the only person on this blog willing to admit that they have said anything inappropriate is me.
Chris, why would an apology be a tremendously humiliating experience? Unless there is some sort of a problem with pride. I think Vic's strong words may arise out of the fact that you call yourself a pastor..and to whom much is given, much is required, do you know what I mean?
that being said also we cannot apologise and then expect to get big pats on the back for being so good and christian as to apologise.That also stems from pride.