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RE: Tithing - heb13-13 - 07-25-2009 09:09 AM
Tithing - Part II
The Point of Logic - Tithing was practiced before the Law, was made a part of the Law, and, therefore, should be practiced after the Law.
If the above statement were true, then it would be true regardless of the topic you were talking about. And, by being "practiced after the Law", it is meant that it becomes part of the New Testament and is a command given to all Christians today.
CIRCUMCISION
But we do not find that to be the case. For example, circumcision was practiced before the Law, was a part of the Law, but is definitely not a part of the New Testament after the Law.
God commanded Abraham to practice circumcision hundreds of years before the Law was handed down through Moses.
BEFORE THE LAW
Gen 17:1a And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him,
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Hundreds of years later, when God was giving the Law through Moses, circumcision was made an integral part of the Law.
THE LAW
Lev 12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
But when the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant, circumcision was not brought forward into the New Covenant. There were many Jewish Christians who thought that circumcision should be made mandatory for everyone who put their faith in Jesus Christ. For them, to become a Christian was to become a Jew. And to be a Jew, one was still under Jewish Law.
One of Paul's biggest battles that he constantly fought was to distinguish between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Paul understood through the illumination of the Holy Spirit that it was critical to separate the former relationship between man and God through the Law (OT), from the new relationship between man and God by GRACE through FAITH in CHRIST (NT). And, since circumcision was one of the most obvious, physical,visible expressions of the OT, it was spoken to in no uncertain terms. Paul made it very clear that no requirement of the Old Law was to be brought forward into the NT.
AFTER THE LAW
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
As you can see in plain language, the Scriptures explain themselves and we should not try to make them say something that they are not saying. Here is something (circumcision) that was BEFORE the LAW and AFTER the LAW, but WAS NOT BROUGHT FORWARD AFTER THE LAW.
Because I was indoctrinated into the Roman Catholic Church as a child, I will also touch upon ALTARS. They existed before the Law, and after the Law but have no place in the New Testament.
BEFORE THE LAW
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 12:8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Gen 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.
THE LAW
There are many references, here is one.
Lev 6:9 Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering: It is the burnt offering, because of the burning upon the altar all night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be burning in it.
AFTER THE LAW
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
But, as we all know, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was the FINAL sacrifice. There will never again be a need to offer a sacrifice to God. There will never again be the need to build a sacrificial altar.
My point is this: You cannot logically argue that something that was practiced before the Law, and was made a part of the Law, should be practiced after the LAW (in the NT).
That's all. I don't want to make these too long. Just enough for you to "chomp" on for awhile. Now that we have dealt with the "LOGIC" issue, I think we will take a closer look at tithing before the Law. I think you will be surprised at a couple of observations. Once I understood what freedom in Christ meant, many things came into focus.
God bless you,
Rick
RE: Tithing - Emjesown - 07-25-2009 10:09 AM
Pride is the worse enemy of our faith
reading all the above made me think
of the story about the talents
5.....3.....and 1 given
The person with 1 talent put it in the ground to keep it "save"......
My point?
Talents are a gift from God
with the understanding we have to do something with it.
But when a talent we have is used to feel more and better then another person, or if we insist we get payed for that talent,
we did n t get the message!
When we aply for a job, there are needed certain skills
if you have those skills, you will be hired.
So you make your money with your skill or talents.
But when a talent comes with a calling......
you do it for free
freely you are given
freely you give....(don t know the excect words)
When someone becomes a pastor full time he has to give up his work for money, his normal job.
To give all his time to the congregation.
Then a salary seems normal to me.
But being a pastor is not n regurlar job, it has to do with a calling.
So should a full time pastor het payed? Yes
But as soon as he sees its as a job and forgets the calling
something is wrong.
Everybody does what he does best
a complement for doing a "good job" is nice
we want to be apreciated
but when a pastor feels better about himself because he is a pastor
wrong again.
Shepherd of sheep, in God's eyes we are equal.
And a shepherd has other talents then a sheep
but both are valueble
Pride because of what you do
making yourself in a higher place then the flock
is wrong again.
Humle yourself in the face of the Lord......always
and be grathfull for your talents
and thank God for them.
Because all we do with out talents
is His doing.
So if you have talents(5....3....or1)
work with it and give all the honor to Him.
EMJE
RE: Tithing - Vic - 07-25-2009 01:05 PM
(07-25-2009 01:43 AM)pastor_chris Wrote: Vic said, "Wrong! Chris came across wrong because of his bad attitude and attacking all the posters when he first started posting. He came across that way by choice. He said later he came on with guns blazing and acted rashly. He knows he was in the wrong and he did behave shamefully and certainly not as a witness of Christ. Those are the facts. "
Vic,
To offer an apology is a tremendously humiliating act and the above words felt like you were rubbing my nose in my own act of contrition and reconciliation. Saying that I acted 'shaemfully' is pretty strong. Flat out Vic, why would you speak that way? I do not understand you. You take an act of kindness and you make it ugly by bashing the person who offered and apology. I am sure you'll tell me how wrong I am but so far the only person on this blog willing to admit that they have said anything inappropriate is me.
I am stunned at how confrontational and uncharitable you are. Now I think I understand why you dont go to a church.
First Chris, I was responding to Lib, and correcting his statement. Further, I had already stated similar to you-if you read my posts. And you yourself stated what I reiterated. You know you came on here combatively, and appear to take every single thing as a personal attack. I am not sure if you understand about having the whole armour of God on--but it's really should not be such a personal thing Chris. In case you missed it. Rick apologised, Mark apologised---I apologised--and likely someone else-- about offending you. It wasn't humiliating in the least---and I am not sure why it was "tremendously humiliating" for you to say you acted rashly. Apparently you don't receive or hear apologies when they are given. I don't recall an apology to me or others on the board for your accusations of us all being pastor haters , in rebellion and on and on.
We offered you friendship and fellowship and if I recall my first post to you was one of encouragment. Your remarks about me personally are inappropriate. And way off base. You could not have read my posts to you. I have been more than patient and charitable with, to give you a chance to settle down and behave in a Christ honoring way. Your indignation and anger are not of Christ. As far as why I am not in a church---that's between my husband and myself and the Lord. It's not up for your approval or disapproval. We could be members of a congregation and were asked to be---but we choose not to. It doesn't impact me you making your remarks as you have. It merely shows where you are at.
RE: Tithing - pastor_chris - 07-25-2009 02:23 PM
Vic you are simply dishonest. I am dont going round with you. Have a nice day
RE: Tithing - heb13-13 - 07-25-2009 03:21 PM
(07-25-2009 02:23 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: Vic you are simply dishonest. I am dont going round with you. Have a nice day
Chris,
Would you please consider re-thinking this post? The reason I say that is because there are a lot of witnesses here not to mention your very own posts. Before you call someone a liar, (dishonest), go back and re-read your posts. Things are never so deep that they cannot be fixed.
Rick
RE: Tithing - pastor_chris - 07-25-2009 06:06 PM
Vic,
Can this stop? Please.
RE: Tithing - Vic - 07-25-2009 06:49 PM
(07-25-2009 06:06 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: Vic,
Can this stop? Please.
What is it you want stopped Chris?
***Rick*** asked you a question in the last post. I didn't.
Why appeal to me? Answer the questions or not. And start abiding the forum rules, if you wish to remain. You might wish to reread them, especially concerning the admin roles.
http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=229
RE: Tithing - Vic - 07-25-2009 06:52 PM
(07-25-2009 10:09 AM)Emjesown Wrote: Pride is the worse enemy of our faith
reading all the above made me think
of the story about the talents
5.....3.....and 1 given
The person with 1 talent put it in the ground to keep it "save"......
My point?
Talents are a gift from God
with the understanding we have to do something with it.
But when a talent we have is used to feel more and better then another person, or if we insist we get payed for that talent,
we did n t get the message!
When we aply for a job, there are needed certain skills
if you have those skills, you will be hired.
So you make your money with your skill or talents.
But when a talent comes with a calling......
you do it for free
freely you are given
freely you give....(don t know the excect words)
When someone becomes a pastor full time he has to give up his work for money, his normal job.
To give all his time to the congregation.
Then a salary seems normal to me.
But being a pastor is not n regurlar job, it has to do with a calling.
So should a full time pastor het payed? Yes
But as soon as he sees its as a job and forgets the calling
something is wrong.
Everybody does what he does best
a complement for doing a "good job" is nice
we want to be apreciated
but when a pastor feels better about himself because he is a pastor
wrong again.
Shepherd of sheep, in God's eyes we are equal.
And a shepherd has other talents then a sheep
but both are valueble
Pride because of what you do
making yourself in a higher place then the flock
is wrong again.
Humle yourself in the face of the Lord......always
and be grathfull for your talents
and thank God for them.
Because all we do with out talents
is His doing.
So if you have talents(5....3....or1)
work with it and give all the honor to Him.
EMJE
Good thoughts Emje!
RE: Tithing - pastor_chris - 07-25-2009 06:54 PM
If it makes you feel good then ban me.
RE: Tithing - sheep wrecked - 07-25-2009 10:07 PM
(07-25-2009 06:54 PM)pastor_chris Wrote: If it makes you feel good then ban me.
Chris,
Banning on this forum is not "to feel good". It's to stop people from posting heresy and refusing to accept correction. If you are not happy here, nothing is stopping you from leaving. If you want to stay here, you are welcome - as long as you follow the forum rules. Now how simple is that?
