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RE: Tithing - Mark - 02-19-2009 09:34 AM

Hi Sheep Wrecked,

Thanks again. The weekend is here and it looks like it could be a busy one so I may not be on very much until next week. I am looking forward to spending some quality time with the the Word and some of the resources on here.Reading Haveaniceday1

God Bless,

Mark

P.S. I think I got the techy thing about the responses. My kids know more about this stuff than I do!:punch:


RE: Tithing - Mark - 02-19-2009 11:55 AM

Oh, one more question before the weekend: Do you have a recommendation as to which Bible translation is the best to study by? I currently am using a NKJV. I have a KJV and a NASB at home as well. I'm not really all that familiar with which company (Thomas Nelson, Zondervan, etc.) is the most trusted or anything. Any input is appreciated.


RE: Tithing - Vic - 02-19-2009 12:03 PM

(02-19-2009 11:55 AM)Mark Wrote:  Oh, one more question before the weekend: Do you have a recommendation as to which Bible translation is the best to study by? I currently am using a NKJV. I have a KJV and a NASB at home as well. I'm not really all that familiar with which company (Thomas Nelson, Zondervan, etc.) is the most trusted or anything. Any input is appreciated.

Hi Mark,

If you look at this section you will see comparison charts of different versions, that might help make a decision about which version.

http://www.seekgod.ca/topicbible.htm

I use KJV, although for awhile when our kids were younger, we used NIV, thinking it simply put it into today's english. But, I went back to KJV, and feel it is the best english translation. I actually started using it when I was 14...and I did not find it difficult to understand because God opened my understanding.

Have a good weekend!
Coffeebath


RE: Tithing - sheep wrecked - 02-19-2009 02:26 PM

(02-19-2009 11:55 AM)Mark Wrote:  Oh, one more question before the weekend: Do you have a recommendation as to which Bible translation is the best to study by? I currently am using a NKJV. I have a KJV and a NASB at home as well. I'm not really all that familiar with which company (Thomas Nelson, Zondervan, etc.) is the most trusted or anything. Any input is appreciated.

Hey Mark!

I'll put in my two cents worth as well 2c

The publishing company simply prints out the versions like Zondervan, although they do have their own supplemented versions like study Bibles, so then that does change how one perceives what they read. Thomas Nelson has their own study Bible based on different versions which again, will give differing view points as to what the Scripture means.

I am troubled with the modern versions for a number of reasons, which includes the NJKV, the NASB, and the NIV. It's a matter of the manuscripts used. Prolly not a real interesting topic for most people, though, but it does affect the translating process significantly for the worse. By the way, the NKJV is not a modern translation of the KJV, which most people errantly assume - it's a completely separate version not based on the KJV.

So I am in agreement with Vic - I mainly use the KJV now, and grew up on it as well. I was using the LITV recently, but when I got a new KJV hard copy [I do most of my studying online] it was like a breath of fresh air :cloud9: I did use the NIV for a number of years [while a pentecostal] and have used the NKJV in the past, as well as Messianic versions.

Hope that helps! Cool0012



RE: Tithing - Mark - 02-23-2009 09:44 AM

Hi Vic and Sheep Wrecked,

Hope you had a good weekend. It went by way too fast and the huge snow storm didn't help any. :boos: I'm ready for Spring! Winter can be crazy here in the East. :excited:
Anyway, I have stuck with the KJV for some time now. Our former pastor switched to the NKJV several years ago and I bought one to be able to follow his sermons better. I do like it, but there is just something about the KJV that stays with you. I have several other translations that I pick up occasionally not for study purposes, but to read the "today's language" for a little change now and then. I do understand that there are a lot of inconsistencies with them, and as I said, when studying, I stay with the KJV.
Well,that's about it for now. I did find an interesting scripture that I hadn't really picked up on before. It helped to understand the incionsistent teaching of the Oneness doctrine. It was Daniel 7:13. To me it showed Christ (son of man) and God (Ancient of Days) as 2 seperate persons. ow could the son of man be brought before the Ancient of Days and receive power and glory if they were only one? It intrigued me and I hope I am not misunderstanding it.
Have a great day. Wave

God Bless,

Mark


RE: Tithing - Emjesown - 02-23-2009 09:55 AM

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Both verses talk of a "son of man"...
In both cases its Jesus, who appears.
the "Him"is single, in daniel He is brought to the ancient of days (YHVH?)
In rev. He is the ancient of days.

He came on earth as a servant
but will come back as a king.

EMJE


RE: Tithing - Vic - 02-23-2009 11:37 AM

Good thoughts Emje and Mark.

One could also ask how Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, if they are singular. Thinking2

I don't know if you saw it Mark, but I started a thread in the Denominational section> Oneness Pentecostals

http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=178

In it I listed the main beliefs of Oneness Pentecostals and did a Biblical look at why or why not. Hope it helps and I am sure you will be able to add insight into more of it. 17434

Glad you had a good weekend. Mine was busy and good. 8816

Blessings



RE: Tithing - LindaR - 03-24-2009 05:34 PM

A couple of years ago, my husband taught an online lesson on biblical tithing. It was done in two parts. The first part deals with the Old Testament pattern of giving and the second part deals with New Testament Grace Giving. Here is part 1:

Quote:When you talk about a person’s finances, you talk about a sensitive subject. Most people, no matter how wealthy they are, feel constrained by the lack of it. In this situation, it is often hard to decide how much of our scarce funds we should give for the work of the church. Fortunately, the Scriptures do give us guidelines to help us honor God in our contributions.

The most common type of giving associated with the Bible is the tithe, which literally means a tenth. The tithe is frequently held up as God's standard for giving, often by citing passages such as Mal. 3:10:

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." Malachi 3:10

If we want to understand how this and similar passages apply to the modern church, we must understand how tithing fits into the Old Testament pattern of giving.

Old Testament Giving

The first references to tithing in the Old Testament are found in the historical accounts of Abram (Gen. 14:20) and Jacob (Gen. 28:22). Abram's tithes were of the spoils of war (not his own property) and Jacob's tithes were only after God had Himself met certain requirements set forth by Jacob.

The law of Moses provides a much fuller view of giving, particularly as it applies in a community setting. Tithing forms a significant role in this teaching. While the Old Testament teaches that Israel's tithes belonged to the Lord, the act of giving the tenth served as an acknowledgment that all that they possessed belonged to God. The same holds true today in the New Testament body of Believers.

There are five passages in the law of Moses which deal at length with tithing. Leviticus 27:30-33 and Numbers 18:20-32 are very similar, and suggest that the Israelites were to set aside each year a tenth of all their crops and herds for the Levites. The Levites, in turn, were instructed to pay a tenth of what they had received to the Levitical Priests, descendants of Aaron. God promised the Levites no inheritance (no land) in Israel. Instead, they were set aside to serve in the Tabernacle (and later in the Temple), and to instruct the people in the word of the Lord. The Israelites' tithes were to provide the means of support for the Levites. Deuteronomy 12:15-19 and Deuteronomy 14:22-26 also speak of a tithe. This tithe was to be taken to Jerusalem, and eaten in a fellowship meal with his family, his servants, and the Levites from his town. In Deut. 14:22-26 there is an added provision that Israelites who lived a distance from Jerusalem and had a substantial tithe could exchange their tithe for silver in their home town and use the silver to purchase food for the feast at Jerusalem. The differences between these two accounts cause me to believe there were actually two tithes, used for distinct purposes. Another tithing variation is presented in Deut. 14:27-29. There we read:

"Deuteronomy 14:27-29 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Looking at all these passages, it becomes clear that the Lord required more than ten percent from the Israelites. The scriptures also teach that the Israelites were to offer the "first fruits" of their harvests to the Lord as well as the first born of all their animals in Exodus 34:19-26.

Part 1 continued...
Part 1 Continued:

Quote:How tithes are related to firstfruits is not clear. Some passages such as Nehemiah 12:44 distinguish tithes and first fruits. If we see two distinct tithes, however, it is possible that one of them would include the provision for the first fruits.

Nehemiah 12:44 And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited.

Along with the tithes, the Israelites were required to present sacrifices and were invited to bring free will offerings to the Lord.

Mal. 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

suggests that the Israelites had robbed God "in tithes and offerings". The word used for offerings in this passage most frequently refers to fellowship offerings, but is also used of other gifts, such as building materials for the tabernacle (Exodus 25:1-7)

By the time the Israelite had paid his tithes and first fruits, presented his sacrifices, and brought his freewill offerings and vows, a substantial portion of his income had been given over to the Lord. What were these tithes and offerings used for?

Apart from the sacrifices which were burnt on the altar as an act of dedication to God, most giving in the Old Testament was to support the Priests and the Levites in their responsibilities. We normally think of the Priests and the Levites as the clergy of the Old Testament, and they certainly filled that role. The Priests offered sacrifices and were responsible for instructing the people in the word of the Lord (2 Chronicles 31:4; Malachi 2:6-9)

The Levites assisted in many of the practical aspects of managing the tabernacle and temple and led the people in worship. (1 Chronicles 23:28-32)

Along with their role in the service of the Lord, the Priests and Levites also performed many functions normally associated with the civil service. Early Israel was predominantly an agricultural society, and was established as a theocracy - a people governed by God. Although there were elders among the other tribes, the Priests were set aside to represent the people before God and they were to represent God before the people. In this capacity, crucial decisions affecting the nations were made by the High Priest (Ex. 28:29,30). The Priests kept God's order in Israel. They were the experts in dietary law, public health and sanitation (Lev. (11-15).

The function of the Levites as a civil service is also confirmed by the appointment of the Levitical cities as cities of refuge. This suggest that the Levites were in some way guardians of the judicial system.

Numbers 35:6 And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer, that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities.

Even after a king was put in rule, the Levites continued in this role (1 Chron 23:4), as well as functioning in an administrative capacity (1 Chron. 26:20-32).

The "3rd" tithe suggests that another primary function of giving in the Old Testament was to provide for the poor. This tithe, offered every 3rd and 6th year, was intended for "the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, orphans and the widows who lived on your property" (Deut. 14:29). This was one of the many provisions made in the law for the poor. Throughout the Old Testament, Israel was condemned for the tendency of the relatively well-to-do to overlook the problems of the poor.

In closing, the act of giving in the Old Testament took many forms, including tithes (possibly two or three), sacrifices, free will offerings, vows, and sometimes even leaving some "gleaning" in the harvest field for the poor (Lev. 19:9,10). This represented a substantial portion of the Israelite's income. These various forms of giving were all expressions of gratitude for God, who is the source of all good. They were intended to glorify him, to support the clergy, and to provide for the needs of the poor. The Priests and Levites also provided a basic civil service.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

Presented in an online Bible Study on Paltalk in October, 2007 by Ron Robey


RE: Tithing - LindaR - 03-24-2009 06:34 PM

The following is the second part of a 2 part teaching on tithing.

Quote:Is tithing taught in the New Testament? If Christians are directed to tithe under the New Covenant then the entire issue can be put to rest. Tithing is not taught to New Covenant believers. Tithing is mentioned in the New Testament, but we need to look at the times it is mentioned in the proper context. Of all the times that tithing is mentioned, the most direct statement about tithing in the New Covenant is in Matthew 23:23:

Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye pay tithes of mint and anise and cummin, and ye have left aside the weightier matters of the law, judgment and mercy and faith: these ye ought to have done and not have left those aside. (This verse is echoed in Luke 11:42)

What is that verse saying? Jesus was telling the Pharisees that they needed to keep the entire law which included tithing as well as burnt sacrifices and worshipping on the Sabbath just to name a few. The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were attempting to prove how perfect they were by even tithing their spices. Jesus was exposing their hypocrisy. In fact the entire 23rd chapter of Matthew lists seven woes that Jesus was directing to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. Jesus was both warning them about what they were doing and telling them the evil that they would be doing in the future with their ‘holier than thou attitude’. Application can be made in Matthew chapter 23 to anyone who acts like the Pharisees and teachers of the law.

Jesus is not telling the Christian reader that he or she should keep the entire law. If so, then his death, burial, and resurrection were for nothing. Here’s the issue. Jesus had not gone to the cross yet so therefore the Israelites and anyone who professed to worship the God of Israel were supposed to be keeping all the laws. That was the correct thing for Jesus to say to them and the correct thing for everyone to do. There are many, many verses in the New Covenant that teach us that we are free from the law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Romans 3:20-24 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

There are many other passages that teach us we are free from the law.

Another instance of tithing is mentioned in the New Testament in Hebrews chapter 7. Even then, it does not teach us that we should be tithing but in the midst of a somewhat detailed explanation of Jesus as the great high priest, it mentions tithing in the current tense. Some have tried to use this scripture to support their belief that Christians should be tithing. That is not what Hebrews chapter 7 is intended for. .

Study of Hebrews

A quick review of the purpose of the book of Hebrews is important. The writer was attempting to instruct Jewish Christians that they should no longer be trying to obey the things contained in the Old Covenant law.

Starting in chapter 1, the writer speaks first of the superiority of Christ over the Prophets, angels, and in chapter 3, Moses. Chapter 4 shows that Christ is superior to Joshua also. It is important to illustrate these things to people that held the law and the prophets so dearly to their hearts. The Jewish Christians were trying to hold onto the law rather than embrace the grace and power that comes with Jesus Christ so the writer had to make these comparisons. In Hebrews 6:1-2 the writer warns that he is now moving into more mature teaching

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The writer of Hebrews goes on to explain in chapter 7 about Melchizedek and starts the discussion about tithing. Hebrews 7:4-6 first indicates that Abraham in Genesis 14:14-20 gave a tithe of the spoils of war only.

Hebrews 7:4-6 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

Contrary to popular teaching, he didn't tithe his own possessions… he tithed that which he took from war. Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war that he took from the 3 kings that had kidnapped his nephew Lot. The book of Hebrews goes on to explain that the Old Covenant law required tithing to the Levites by all Israelites that farmed or raised animals. The Levites were then required to give a tithe of what they received to the High Priest.

Many people have a misunderstanding about Hebrews 7:8.

Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

This verse is talking about the same person written about earlier in Hebrews 7:1-3 and that person is Melchizedek. Melchizedek is the person 'declared to be living' in this passage. The writer was merely stating what was happening then and not giving a command as far as what Christians need to do now. In fact the writer was attempting to get the Hebrews to stop trying to obey parts of the law that included tithing.

Hebrews 7:1-3 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

For the benefit of those Hebrews - and everyone else who is trying to keep parts of the law God gave to the Israelites - Hebrews 7:18 ends the discussion.

Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

The word disannulling is the Greek word athetesis (ath et ay sis) it simply means cancelled.

No matter how you choose to interpret the 'regulation' or 'commandment' mentioned - it is either talking about tithing, the Levitical priesthood, or all the laws - either way the Bible teaches that it has been cancelled. Tithing was part of the law and the law was given on the basis of the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 7:11).

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

The Bible teaches that believers should are not bound by any of the laws God gave to the Israelites. We have been given a new and better covenant

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Hebrews 7:20-22 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec: ) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Part II Continued...


RE: Tithing - Vic - 03-24-2009 07:04 PM

Thanks to much for sharing that Linda. It lines up with what we have studied and concluded also. 14387
And now I can say there is someone who posts as long of posts as I do. 7086 Keep on posting! 10164