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RE: Tithing - pastor_chris - 07-22-2009 03:22 AM
Tithing is not required because Christ fulfilled the Law....all of it. Having said that grace giving far exceeds 10%. We are freed to give everything when we surrender to the Holy Spirit. As a rule of thumb 10% is a good place for believers to start, if they havent been giving but a lousy place to stop. It should never become a "legal" requirement but rather an act of love and giving must always be "cheerful". Churches that teach a legalistic tithe are teaching against the New Covenant of grace!
RE: Tithing - Emjesown - 07-22-2009 08:26 AM
Tithing to the levites is no longer possible therefor useless.
But.....
We have to carry our congregation together(if you belong to one)
expences neccecary to bring the gospel, realise gatherings, youthwork etc.
But God loves the cheerfull giver.
If you don t belong to a congr. there are plenty of things you can do and give to others who need it.
After all, all we have we get for free, share your talents,
share your money and stuff.
Not because you have to
but because you want to
But accepting help from others is as important as give to others.
Asking for helpis not my strongest side, but a friend told me once......
when you dont ask you denie others to help you
So Help and be helped.
EMJE
RE: Tithing - sheep wrecked - 07-22-2009 11:21 AM
(07-22-2009 03:22 AM)pastor_chris Wrote: Tithing is not required because Christ fulfilled the Law....all of it. Having said that grace giving far exceeds 10%. We are freed to give everything when we surrender to the Holy Spirit. As a rule of thumb 10% is a good place for believers to start, if they havent been giving but a lousy place to stop. It should never become a "legal" requirement but rather an act of love and giving must always be "cheerful". Churches that teach a legalistic tithe are teaching against the New Covenant of grace!
If a 100% already belongs to God, then why is 10% a "good place to start"?
RE: Tithing - Rose of Shushan - 07-22-2009 11:32 AM
Good point sheep!
And additionally tying it into what Emje posted, there may be times in our lives where we are called to ,because of circumstances, allow others to help us financially instead of us being the actual giver. This takes humility also. Often it is our pride that stops us from allowing others to help us.
Putting everyone under a mandatory command to give a certain amount regardless of circumstances places an extremely harsh burden on those facing financial difficulties.
RE: Tithing - Vic - 07-22-2009 01:34 PM
I think that giving is fully between the individual and God. As already noted, everything we have belongs God. People think in terms of money as being the focus of giving. But that's not all we have been given. We have food, clothing, bedding, shoes, vehicles, homes....there may be a time when we need to give of those things....
It really doesn't have anything to do with percentages. We are to give as God lays it on our hearts. It may be a physical gift, money....or simply the gift of time, visiting someone, offering comfort....God knows the needs and what He has provided each of us. He also knows what He wants each one of us to do with those things. And if He is allowed to be in 'charge'--there will not be a shortfall, either physically or emotionally or spiritually for those in need of any aspect of that. By the very aspect of who we are in Christ, we are to have charity, care the poor and be there in times of need.
2 Corinthians 9:6-12 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9. (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10. Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) 11. Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12. For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
RE: Tithing - heb13-13 - 07-22-2009 02:48 PM
Bring a couple of chickens "to Church" and put them in the offering plate. They'll feed someone, but I guess they won't pay a salary.
I knew someone once, (lost touch with him) who proclaimed that he paid his tithe for 14 straight years. He was understandably quite proud of this achievement. I must admit, that is quite an achievement (from man's standpoint). Yet, in the rest of our conversation I could tell that he was disenchanted in the way that God "paid him back". His ship had not come in yet.
I would see him schmoozing with the "beautiful" and "talented" people in the church and he was even able to "get on staff", although he was not paid. He did not live in nearly as nice a neighborhood as they, but it was his hope one day.
It was sad that his relationship with God in this area of his life was based on performance.
He was taught that "you cannot outgive God", and if you tithe God will take care of all of your "needs".
I think he felt that the recompense from God was not in keeping with his unbroken record of tithing.
Our God is not Pavlov's dog. Where He has to react a certain way once we give.
We set ourselves up for a fall when we think this way regarding the Lord.
We really are not our own and we really are not SERVANTS of MEN.
1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
This life that we have been called to is not about giving so that we can get.
Many Christians through the centuries and indeed living today, have had nothing but suffering since the day they were born-again. And we will all see someday the manifold wisdom of God and what He was accomplishing in His people and in those unsaved people that witnessed the suffering of His children.
There is a suffering that we bring on ourselves and there is a suffering ordained by God. My friend caused he and his family to suffer just to be "perfect" in his weekly tithing and this self-imposed suffering did not produce good fruit. I hope he does not blame the hard times they went through on the Lord.
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
RE: Tithing - sheep wrecked - 07-22-2009 03:17 PM
RE: Tithing - heb13-13 - 07-22-2009 04:11 PM
(07-22-2009 03:17 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:
God never got more than 10% from my friend. Rose is right, he owns 100% of us. God owned 10% of his wallet but not 100% of his heart.
If the Lord ever calls upon a man or woman who is a tither to give more than 10%, they just might dismiss that voice as not being from God, because they "already gave".
When a real test comes in our lives, what is in our heart or what is not in our heart, as the case may be, will be revealed.
RE: Tithing - pastor_chris - 07-23-2009 01:37 AM
All I know is that in the early church they gave all of it! I think we are just to be honest too materialistic as spoiled American Christians. Honestly, we did a report in my church last year and fewer than 7% of our church gives 10% or more of their income. Why? Because they'd rather play slot machines in Laughlin! (We live 40 minutes from Nevada). No one in my church would ask people to go with out food or clothing or any neccesities to give to the church coffers. But the reality is that many ministries are suffering because the people would rather gamble, or buy a new car.
In addition pastors are severley underpaid and underappreciated. WHy? Because most of our church members are not generous! This is a greedy spirit, not the Holy Spirit of God. My salary (while I am thankful fo it) is hard for a man with a family to raise his family on. We dont have health insurance, and we never will. I love what I do, but lets face it we are a materialistic people. Most do not give simply because they dont want to. Do you know that most pastors struggle to buy clothes and shoes for their kids? Maybe some are "flush" with cash but that is a rare situation. While I am not an advocate of legalistic giving (its anti-New Covenant) I believe God's people should put their money where their heart is. And to many have their heart on Earth.
RE: Tithing - heb13-13 - 07-23-2009 09:17 AM
(07-23-2009 01:37 AM)pastor_chris Wrote: All I know is that in the early church they gave all of it! I think we are just to be honest too materialistic as spoiled American Christians. Honestly, we did a report in my church last year and fewer than 7% of our church gives 10% or more of their income. Why? Because they'd rather play slot machines in Laughlin! (We live 40 minutes from Nevada). No one in my church would ask people to go with out food or clothing or any neccesities to give to the church coffers. But the reality is that many ministries are suffering because the people would rather gamble, or buy a new car.
In addition pastors are severley underpaid and underappreciated. WHy? Because most of our church members are not generous! This is a greedy spirit, not the Holy Spirit of God. My salary (while I am thankful fo it) is hard for a man with a family to raise his family on. We dont have health insurance, and we never will. I love what I do, but lets face it we are a materialistic people. Most do not give simply because they dont want to. Do you know that most pastors struggle to buy clothes and shoes for their kids? Maybe some are "flush" with cash but that is a rare situation. While I am not an advocate of legalistic giving (its anti-New Covenant) I believe God's people should put their money where their heart is. And to many have their heart on Earth.
Chris,
Read my post under "Reverend or Pastor".
It is clear that being a "Pastor" is taking a heavy toll on you. It is very clear in your attitude towards your own congregation.
Sounds like you and they are attacking each other, each week.