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Can we lose Salvation? - milordsheep - 03-02-2009 12:47 PM
I will try to ask questions without hand grenades.
I believe while our Salvation cannot be taken away...it can be thrown away.
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - sheep wrecked - 03-02-2009 03:30 PM
(03-02-2009 12:47 PM)milordsheep Wrote: I will try to ask questions without hand grenades.
I believe while our Salvation cannot be taken away...it can be thrown away.
ok - that made me smile
I thought I was the only one who lobbed those little mini bombs here and there :punch:
personally ....... I like friendly fire
good question for discussion
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - LindaR - 03-26-2009 09:53 PM
(03-02-2009 12:47 PM)milordsheep Wrote: I will try to ask questions without hand grenades.How can our salvation be thrown away? I disagree...I believe we are eternally secure in Christ Jesus..saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption:
I believe while our Salvation cannot be taken away...it can be thrown away.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Philippians 1:6)
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Timothy 1:12)
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5)
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)
Thank the Lord that He does the keeping...not us. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. We cannot throw away what we didn't earn...however we can REJECT that gift of salvation.
THE BELIEVER'S RICHES IN CHRIST FROM A TO Z
Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6)
Born of God (1 Johb 5:1)
Crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20)
Delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
Enriched in everything in Him (1 Corinthians 1:5)
Forgiven for Christ's sake (Ephesians 4:32)
Grounded in love (Ephesians 3:17)
Hid with Christ (Colossians 3:3)
Instructed in the way of the Lord (Acts 18:25)
Justified by His grace (Titus 3:7)
Kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5)
Led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)
Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)
Nourished in the words of faith (1 Timothy 4:6)
Ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48)
Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
Quickened together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5)
Redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13)
Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13)
Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13)
Unreproveable in His sight (Colossians 1:22)
Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)
Washed from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1:5)
Yearned over by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26)
Zealous of good works (Titus 2:14)
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - finney - 05-03-2009 06:38 PM
Only if you can make the Lord not keep his word. Our salvation (Praise God and thank you very much) is not contingent upon what we do, it's based on what He did.
If you could, I would have. I spent years trying to please God and 'be saved' and I spent years trying to lose my salvation 'cause I couldn't 'do it'. I've told God to just leave me alone, I've deliberately tried to go away from him by sin, expecting that he would just call it a day and leave me be. I couldn't do it, I couldn't live the Chrisitian life and eventually I'd just give up trying. I'm not kiddin' on the years part, either. Desire to do and be and no way to do will just drive you nuts. Suicide was a strong temptation at times and seemed like the only way to cease the constant goad of the law. I knew there had to be something other than that but couldn't see what it was. I figured if I did the right things then the 'joy of the Lord' and such like would just happen. It's a miserable way to live. He never let me go, though, and eventually he brought me to the place where I could trust him and where I ceased from my efforts. Not all of us have fathers that we can (or could, in my case) trust. If you're raised that way it's tough to trust God, and since I knew I just kept sinning no matter what, how could I expect that he could love me or want anything to do with me? I wanted him to leave so I could prove somehow that I really wasn't worthy and that this was all a mistake on his part. Years of torment and internal anguish over that but now I think it was all for good in the end. Am I perfect now? Hah! I've ceased to care, though, about what I'm like and instead just rest in the Lord and his righteousness. I quit. But there's plenty out there like me (just differing degrees) and I'm now in a position to help 'em.
If the question were phrased somewhat differently there would be different responses.
As to throwing it away, milordsheep: You're welcome to try; it can't be done but it ain't worth findin' out through experience except that the effort's put me in a place I might never have come to otherwise. Was it worth all that just so I could be in a place to help others? Apparently. Would I wish it on anybody for any reason? NO! Was it necessary? That I can't say. All I can say in the end for certain is this: Jesus' salvation is perfect and true and lovely and holy and free free free and beautiful and most definitely not yours to hold on to or lose or throw away or any other thing; it's His and he's able and willing to keep you despite yourself. If you think you're doing something that 'keeps you saved' you're still strugglin' with the law of sin and death. The only way you can lose his life is if he does and he did that already once for all. There's a lot more I can say on this subject but that'll do for now.
finney
PS Sorry for the length of the post.
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - Emjesown - 05-04-2009 05:47 AM
My
If we can t earn our salvation
how can we lose it?
It s a gift and only the giver can take it away
but He won t because:
It's all His doing>>>>>>
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Some people say:
If they leave God and lose theyre salvation they where not His to begin with!
And the bible confirma that
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
So i see salvation as a work of God
He draws us
He keeps us
We submit our will to Him
EMJE
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - Strefanash - 05-12-2009 04:18 PM
In my serious considered opinion Hebrews 6:4 is most explicit, for those it describes as having fallen away to perdition as having been partakers of the Holy Spirit. As only the born again can be partakers of the Spirit (for unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God, John 3:3 ) then clearly the born again can fall away to reject the very Lord they once trusted in.
Of course the proper response to this fact is not the one I made. Mortal terror and frantic legalism are exactly the wrong responses. But awareness that one can forsake the Living God and instead perhaps chose religiosity can be useful. On th ebasis of this awareness we can seek the Liviung God and and be progressively lead to repent of the sins in us which unchecked would have us forsake Him forever
Indeed OSAS (Once SAved Always Saved) cloaks the danger of legalism and hypocrisy by watering down the danger of backsliding
The quote of I John 2:19 cited above does not necessarily invalidate my position, for who were those who were not "of us"? Were they those never born again, as many infer, or were they never spiritual, instead were only carnal believers. To assert that they were never born again is to violate too many other plain passages in scripture, therefore a reading of this or any passage must be selected that does not set up a contradiction with any other
I do hold that once saved always saved is a dangerous error, for it trusts the wroing thing. To trust a doctrinal platform is not the same thing as trusting a living person. as we trust the living christ (by being convicted in Grace of our sins of unbelief then receiving the free gift of repentance of these sins as the mater arises) the net effect is the same as OSAS (the very eternal security mentioned above) but the difference is subtle and in fact, I contend, crucial.
Hebrews also says "Today if you hear My voice HARDEN NOT YOUR HEART". what are the consequences of hardening one's heart. I hold that if this is not dealt with then it can lead to blasphemy of the Spirit. As for the tree that bears no fruit. What of it? It is cultivated and fertilised by the Gardner Himself, but if the tree persists in bearing no fruit it is cut out and burned. To me the burning means damnation, for the only alternative is some kind of purgatory.
AS for running the race, enduring to the end, the consequences of refusing these are all too plain, proof that the scripture is jam packed with exhortations that would be meaningless if OSAS were true
I categorically reject the idea that Once Saved Always Saved is biblical, but I firmly assert that I have answered the objections, ort can further elaborate if asked, of those who hold this position
I voted yes to the poll can we lose our salvation. but let us analyse the concepts. No we cannot lose it, it is not a coin or a set of keys, but as the wording of the poll did not allow a distinction between losing and rejecting I swallowed my reservations and voted anyway
. I hold that we can reject it. In fact the letter to the Hebrews warns us not to neglect out salvationWhat is salvation? The state of being saved. THis is all well and good but what does that mean? Who or what saves us? God does. So salvation is a person, I contend, That is to say the question is WHO is our salvation? Jesus Christ is. and not just the doctrine but the living reality the person who rose from the dead and lives now. So: can a christian reject someone they have encountered as Lord? Yes, if we dont love him. But can a christian be a christian and not love Him? Of course, Such a person is described in 2 Corinthians as the carnal christian. And my fruit show if I am carnal or not.
Every act of repentance I make is a gift of his grace, that is to say a result of his personal intervention and persuasion, for without his personal intervention and persuasion (come let us reason together) there is no repentance.
But if the Holy Spirit (ie God here and now who speaks to me here and now) speaks and i decide to persist in ignoring Him the time will come when he will give up on me. This must be a possibility lest the Bible speak in vain about quenching the Spirit, after all why warn the people of God about a sin they are incapable of committing? So, when this final silencing of the Holy Spirit in my life happens my claiming to be son of God is no more worthy of consideration than Israel claiming to be descendants of Abraham.
Can I reject God? My sins show I do it daily. Can I reject the Holy Spirit (ie the stil small voice of God speaking direct to me)? That I do daily, in fact I am of late becoming increasingly aware of how much I simply ignore what God says to me. The solution? To seek the Spirit to be lead to repent of the seed of apostasy in me before it flowers and, like cancer, metastizes within me to my loss.
Awareness of my ability to reject my salvation (ie reject my God) is slowly ceasing to have me fear, but it is having me move slowly but surely to seek the One who saves me that He may deal with that within me whereby I would reject Him.
To deny that there is that in me that would reject Him, or to deny that said rejection would have me ultimately in hell if these things are not confessed and repented of by His merciful and persoin intervention (grace, if you will) is, IMO, a terrible and deadly error.
I cannot and will not believe that Once SAved Always Saved. But I will achieve the true rest in christ - that much is growing increasingly certain
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - finney - 05-12-2009 09:04 PM
Once saved always saved is oft used as an excuse for the flesh, is an (among Christians) emotionally loaded sound byte that really doesn't say anything (or else says it all) and the question can be asked or answered by better means than an adage.
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and it was to Paul that the mystery of the church was revealed. Why are you using a verse from a book written to the Hebrews to try to force a doctrine onto the church? Look at Hebrews; if this and if that. Let's take "if we hold on to the end" for example. The end of what? "If they shall fall away" from what? See anywhere in there that the writer of Hebrews is talking about falling away from salvation? That's Hebrews 6:6 and just four verses later the writer of Hebrews declares that "God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister." What work are you doing? What work are we to do? It's in John 6 about a third of the way through, but I'll let you go look for it. Hebrews is not a gospel of grace or "the gospel of Christ" book, it's a kingdom gospel book for the people it's addressed to; the Hebrews. Find in the writings of our apostle where we're to repent of something as a condition of our salvation. Peter preached "repent" to the Jews but Paul does not. His proclamation is not "Repent" (both since the Gentiles were never under the law to begin with and since all sins for the whole world for all peoples are forgiven) but "Believe".
You will not "achieve" that Sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrews. It is obtained through labor if the words in the verse mean anything. If the word rest means rest then the word labor means labor. Whatever works you're doing to "acheive" in this dispensation of grace given to Paul are of reward and not of faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Thank God our sins are gone forever or we'd all be done on that one.
Oh.. By the way... you can't have eternal life if you'e sinned even once after being born again 'cause the wages of sin isn't "Forgive me" nor is it "I'm sorry" nor is it "I repent." It's death. The only way you could have eternal life is if the sin issue has been dealt with decisively and completely, not only in it's effects but in it's continued imputation. There remaineth no more sacrifce... Remember that? Are you going to stand there and tell me flat-footed that you have NEVER sinned willfully (I don't actually know what other kind there is now that the law's been done away with as a means of judging whether one's sinning or not) since you were born again? What do you do with Hebrews 10:26 and 27?
That rest is available right now, for free, by faith in Jesus Christ and his death, burial and resurrection. You ain't gonna see it through any effort of your own, but most folks need to dash themselves against the rocks for a while 'fore they can figure that out.
finney
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - Strefanash - 05-12-2009 09:56 PM
finney, ther is so much heat in your post i cannt make out what you are tring to say.
You wrote: "See anywhere in there that the writer of Hebrews is talking about falling away from salvation?" I answer plainly that it is in Hebrews chapter 2: 1-3. The Hebrews (which I take to be the hebrew church not the Jewish nation) were told here not to neglect their salvation
But if you really are saying that you cant have eternal life if you sin after being born again you are completely out of court, for he who says he is without sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. Not only that, but you have set yourself up for a life of torment as you try to force yourself to live that sinless life. I have been there and done that. and it made hell of over 20 years of my life.
But if this is a postion you were not advocating, rather were refuting, you have not clearly shown this, and you need to cool down and write more clearly what you are on about, because what I read from your passionate post is deep and terrible error. Did you mean this or something else?
As for wilfull sin there MUST be a distiction between the simple wilfullness of sin whereby we are accountable for it, and that wilfullness of sin that is the blasphemy of the Spirit (because for ALL other sin, though it be willful, there IS sacrifice and forgiveness otherwise the cross was for nothing). If there is not a distinction here then everyone of us is damned for the inward nature of sin (read the sermon in the mount) obliterates the value of our forced efforts
As for your arguing from Hebrews 10:26 ff, which is it to be? If I am using a book written to the Hebrews to force a doctrine on the church therefore the letter to the Hebrews is not relevant to the church and should not be in scrpture. But if I am doing this why are you not? If I am not allowed to force doctrine on the church by quoting Hebrews then neither are you. Or is there a subtlety in your thought your emotive prose has obscured, because all i read here is either self contradiction or error
AS for your comments on the Sabbath rest of the believer I can make no sense of them. "Strive to enter the rest" is not a command to struggle legalisticially, which I have done to no effect, it is is command to seek the lord in prayer, to strive in prayer if you will. This I have done, this I do daily, and the result is a progressive move.
To finish: that the wages of sin is death is indisputable, but you have denied grace if you think that death is the ONLY thing that follows sin in a christian, What says I John 1:9? If we confess our sin "He is faithful and just to firgive ourt sin. John wrote this to christians, not unbelievers. It applies to christians also. If it does not then either we are virtually sinkless saints totally soaked in the power and glory of God, or we are all damnd, every single one of us
THe wages of sin are death if one refuses to repent. But if you repent there is restoration, moreover this does not end at conversion, it in fact starts there. You seem to have missed this on out completely.
You are speaking to a pharisee of the pharisees, a total legalist who twisted scripture in much the same way you appear to be (unless your prose is so unclear that your meaning is lost in yoiur passion). I have been there and done that. In my pride I denied the living God for the Law, but he persisted with me
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - finney - 05-13-2009 06:44 AM
OK. I see where this is going. Actually, there wasn't any "heat" in that little missive, I'm not angry nor upset in any way with you (or anybody else I've run across here), it's just that there's so much to cover I was just puddle-jumping to touch on as much stuff as I could in as brief a time as possible (I don't always have much time for this).
Once you get past Philemon you're no longer dealing with church books, you're dealing with books for those that turn to Christ during the tribulation. Paul, not John, not Peter, not James, not the writer of Hebrews or anybody else you care to name is the apostle to the Gentiles and it was to him that the mystery of the church and the dispensation of grace was revealed. When you (or anybody, for that matter) try to make Hebrews or I John apply to the church you're pounding square pegs into round holes. Don't give me "All scripture is..." either, because not all scripture is for practice (unless you stone witches and kill those that practice homosexuality and only travel about 6,000 feet from Friday afternoon to Saturday the same and so on and so on. 613 rules in the Old Covenant, most of which are just flat out ignored. Pretty much only those dealing with people giving money to Priests, Pastors and Parsons are mentioned).
Anything at all that you must do to remain saved becomes work for reward (not losing your salvation). God will punish you for doing or not doing by taking away His free gift (which He said He wouldn't do; the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That's repentance on His part, not yours, by the way.) of everlasting life through faith in Christ Jesus and when you say that you (or anybody) denies the cross. If you can lose salvation then 1) it wasn't everlasting and 2) not all sin was placed on Christ; there was enough left over to condemn you.
I'm stickin' with the sins of the world placed on him and God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their sins against them and Jesus was made a curse for us and so on. It's not about what we do for reward or fear of punishment, that's the law; it's about what we do out of love and being beseeched to do, not commanded.
I don't know what you think you can do that will cause you to lose everlasting life, but if that's what you believe than you better not do it. I feel for you and all those that still struggle with the law of sin and death. It's a big dragon and he still rears his head over my way, too.
finney
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - sheep wrecked - 05-13-2009 01:28 PM
(05-13-2009 06:44 AM)finney Wrote: OK. I see where this is going. Actually, there wasn't any "heat" in that little missive, I'm not angry nor upset in any way with you (or anybody else I've run across here), it's just that there's so much to cover I was just puddle-jumping to touch on as much stuff as I could in as brief a time as possible (I don't always have much time for this).
Puddle jumping would be pretty accurate. Sometimes you just gotta settle down and take one point at at time instead of flip flopping around and expect people to follow what you are trying to say
Quote:Once you get past Philemon you're no longer dealing with church books, you're dealing with books for those that turn to Christ during the tribulation. Paul, not John, not Peter, not James, not the writer of Hebrews or anybody else you care to name is the apostle to the Gentiles and it was to him that the mystery of the church and the dispensation of grace was revealed. When you (or anybody, for that matter) try to make Hebrews or I John apply to the church you're pounding square pegs into round holes. Don't give me "All scripture is..." either, because not all scripture is for practice (unless you stone witches and kill those that practice homosexuality and only travel about 6,000 feet from Friday afternoon to Saturday the same and so on and so on. 613 rules in the Old Covenant, most of which are just flat out ignored. Pretty much only those dealing with people giving money to Priests, Pastors and Parsons are mentioned).
Let me take this one thought at a time.
The books of the NT are not ordered chronologically, so I am not sure of you point of "once you are past Philemon".
Question 1: If the NT were not for all believers, then why did Peter refer to Paul's writings as "Scritpure"?
Question 2: When Peter was with the gentile he wasn't actually preaching Christ or the gospel--just hanging out so they could all be buds?
Question 3: Are you looking at the Jews as a separate group? and they don't have the same gospel as we do?
Question 4: Am I to understand that the NT is not for believers then, but for pastors only?
1Pe 5:12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
Silvanus was a roman citizen--not a Jew
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
This text means all christians--Jews and gentiles.
1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The strangers are foreigners === those not of jewish descent necessarily ---that means all christians--Jews and gentiles
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works.
Question 5: Please do tell, are the Jews only, men of God?
Question 6: Where do you see what one "practices" listed here?
The OT Law is the old covenant, which was replaced by the New Covenant in Christ's blood. We no longer stone people. The 6,000 ft traveling on the Shabbat is a Rabbinic tradition, as are the numerical significance of "613" - not found in the Bible.
Quote:Anything at all that you must do to remain saved becomes work for reward (not losing your salvation). God will punish you for doing or not doing by taking away His free gift (which He said He wouldn't do; the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. That's repentance on His part, not yours, by the way.) of everlasting life through faith in Christ Jesus and when you say that you (or anybody) denies the cross. If you can lose salvation then 1) it wasn't everlasting and 2) not all sin was placed on Christ; there was enough left over to condemn you.
I think you are mixing up a few concepts here. First, salvation is a gift without works. Continuing in salvation is working it out with fear and trembling, and bearing forth good fruit, as we are made in the image of Christ daily by the work of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God. It is His effort in us that leads us in the paths of righteousness. We have a choice to follow that lead - we are not robots. Therefore, it is not God who "takes away" salvation - people choose to throw it away.
Can you please tell me what Jesus meant when He said this?
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.
Quote:I'm stickin' with the sins of the world placed on him and God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their sins against them and Jesus was made a curse for us and so on. It's not about what we do for reward or fear of punishment, that's the law; it's about what we do out of love and being beseeched to do, not commanded.
So, even you agree that we are required to do certain things in order to continue in salvation.
Quote:I don't know what you think you can do that will cause you to lose everlasting life, but if that's what you believe than you better not do it. I feel for you and all those that still struggle with the law of sin and death. It's a big dragon and he still rears his head over my way, too.
We struggle with sin because we are still in the flesh. But we don't desire to sin as a child of God, and crucify the flesh daily. Then when we sin, we repent and confess our sins. The promise is that when we do sin, God is faithful to forgive or else we would most certainly be doomed for destruction. It is a matter of the heart. This is the New Covenant, God's Law written on the heart.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Do you agree that the "let us hold fast our profession" is our choice?