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RE: Can we lose Salvation? - heb13-13 - 09-05-2009 07:51 PM
(09-05-2009 03:38 PM)Izzy Wrote: Interesting discussion points!
Let me ask this...if you believe you can't lose your salvation does that mean you are in the pre-destination/Reformed theology group? And if you believe you can, that you're aligning with the free-will folks?
BTW: This is not a "trick" question. I've been finding out in discussions that there are folks more heavily invested in some of these areas than what I formerly realized.
Seems to me that the question is wrong. How about, "Can a person reject God"? Or,can a person cause his name to be blotted out of the Book of life? Is this what you mean?
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - Izzy - 09-05-2009 11:45 PM
(09-05-2009 07:51 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: [quote='Izzy' pid='4013' dateline='1252179487']
Interesting discussion points!
Seems to me that the question is wrong. How about, "Can a person reject God"? Or,can a person cause his name to be blotted out of the Book of life? Is this what you mean?
Not exactly. At least right now. I've experienced - & seen others experience - sites where you make a comment about such views on salvation and you're promply labeled as a false professer or worse. It's like being blind-sided or something
If you don't understand what I'm referring to I'll take that as a positive sign that it doesn't happen here.
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - sheep wrecked - 09-06-2009 04:41 PM
(09-05-2009 11:45 PM)Izzy Wrote:(09-05-2009 07:51 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: [quote='Izzy' pid='4013' dateline='1252179487']
Interesting discussion points!
Seems to me that the question is wrong. How about, "Can a person reject God"? Or,can a person cause his name to be blotted out of the Book of life? Is this what you mean?
Not exactly. At least right now. I've experienced - & seen others experience - sites where you make a comment about such views on salvation and you're promply labeled as a false professer or worse. It's like being blind-sided or something
I think most of us who post on various Christian forums run into the OSAS [once saved always saved] crowd - we have some who have come here as well [see earlier posts in this thread].
I was raised Calvinistic, so I am familiar with the predestination theory and the free will view point as well. Those who take one side or the other are missing the point, which I think Rick was trying to show. It's not about not worrying about your salvation or whether you have free will to choose or reject Christ. If one belongs to Him, then one should be living for Him and loving Him with all their heart. To put it in today's vernacular - we are to have a relationship with God. Without that, one does not "know" God and He does not "know" you.
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - Izzy - 09-07-2009 12:27 AM
(09-06-2009 04:41 PM)sheep wrecked Wrote:(09-05-2009 11:45 PM)Izzy Wrote:(09-05-2009 07:51 PM)heb13-13 Wrote: [quote='Izzy' pid='4013' dateline='1252179487']
Interesting discussion points!
Seems to me that the question is wrong. How about, "Can a person reject God"? Or,can a person cause his name to be blotted out of the Book of life? Is this what you mean?
Not exactly. At least right now. I've experienced - & seen others experience - sites where you make a comment about such views on salvation and you're promply labeled as a false professer or worse. It's like being blind-sided or something
I think most of us who post on various Christian forums run into the OSAS [once saved always saved] crowd - we have some who have come here as well [see earlier posts in this thread].
I was raised Calvinistic, so I am familiar with the predestination theory and the free will view point as well. Those who take one side or the other are missing the point, which I think Rick was trying to show. It's not about not worrying about your salvation or whether you have free will to choose or reject Christ. If one belongs to Him, then one should be living for Him and loving Him with all their heart. To put it in today's vernacular - we are to have a relationship with God. Without that, one does not "know" God and He does not "know" you.
Thanks for the input SW
The short version of my opinion is that, because our God is omniscient, predestination & free-will are not mutually exclusive..which is fightin' words in some quarters as you apparently know & I NOW know 
Really didn't want to walk into that one again. Now I'll go back to enjoying the discussion
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - sheep wrecked - 09-07-2009 06:59 PM
(09-07-2009 12:27 AM)Izzy Wrote: Thanks for the input SWThe short version of my opinion is that, because our God is omniscient, predestination & free-will are not mutually exclusive..which is fightin' words in some quarters as you apparently know & I NOW knowReally didn't want to walk into that one again. Now I'll go back to enjoying the discussion
I like that - not mutually exclusive - well put!
We always need to approach the Scriptures with balance - not one extreme or another. Often, people are quite led to pounce on a verse or two and "own it" as the end-all of their doctrinal position. The Bible should be seen as a whole, not segmented into parts for palatablity
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - BeenWorkin - 01-27-2010 07:08 PM
Finney Said, "Once saved always saved is oft used as an excuse for the flesh,... (among Christians)..."
That depends on whom you call a Christian. We know there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there, and they have no conviction about sinning and saying "It is my freedom in Christ". But if you believe in once saved always saved as Jesus taught in
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
You will believe that the desire for righteousness is given to those who are born of the spirit.
Some people point to
Mathew7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
But he says "I never knew you", not "I used to Know know you, but you blew it". And if Salvation is something you cannot gain then how can you lose it (back to John 10:29).
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - sheep wrecked - 01-27-2010 07:40 PM
(01-27-2010 07:08 PM)Ben Wrote: Finney Said, "Once saved always saved is oft used as an excuse for the flesh,... (among Christians)..."
That depends on whom you call a Christian. We know there are wolves in sheep's clothing out there, and they have no conviction about sinning and saying "It is my freedom in Christ". But if you believe in once saved always saved as Jesus taught in
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
You will believe that the desire for righteousness is given to those who are born of the spirit.
Some people point to
Mathew7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
But he says "I never knew you", not "I used to Know know you, but you blew it". And if Salvation is something you cannot gain then how can you lose it (back to John 10:29).
I love the parable of the Sower as well, because it truly shows that there are people who believe [receive the Word/Christ], but then fall away.
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - BeenWorkin - 01-27-2010 08:09 PM
Sheep Wrecked said " I love the parable of the Sower as well, because it truly shows that there are people who believe [receive the Word/Christ], but then fall away."
This falling away is from belief, but not salvation.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
They simply were not real Children of God to begin with.
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - sheep wrecked - 01-27-2010 08:26 PM
(01-27-2010 08:09 PM)Ben Wrote: Sheep Wrecked said " I love the parable of the Sower as well, because it truly shows that there are people who believe [receive the Word/Christ], but then fall away."
This falling away is from belief, but not salvation.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
They simply were not real Children of God to begin with.
Question: Is Jesus the Word?
I thought I would post the parable - I think it makes it a little clearer by reading what Jesus said:
Mar 4:3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
Mar 4:4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
Mar 4:7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
Mar 4:8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
Mar 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Compare this to what Jesus said in John 15
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
RE: Can we lose Salvation? - Scotchman - 01-27-2010 11:21 PM
(01-27-2010 08:09 PM)Ben Wrote: Sheep Wrecked said " I love the parable of the Sower as well, because it truly shows that there are people who believe [receive the Word/Christ], but then fall away."
This falling away is from belief, but not salvation.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
They simply were not real Children of God to begin with.
What else can one say but this:
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are
John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God
I am thankful that my salvation is in Christ's hands and not my own.
Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called
I think also that when Jesus refers to HIS as Sheep and the world as Wolves that the implication is that one can not change his inherent nature. One is either Damned or Sanctified at God's Will (see Romans 9).
We are saved for Life!