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Those antinomian christians... - Vic - 03-23-2009 03:12 PM
Many to most in HR and also those claiming to be Messianic view christians--small c--- in derogatory terms and make some accusations. One of those is the accusation that christians are antimomians or lawless. Many will also add that we believe in a lawless Jesus, or similar.
Why the accusation?
Don't Christians have 'the law' written on their hearts, as the Scriptures say?
Don't we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to change us and guide us into obedience of God's Word, to keep us from sin; to be holy as He is holy?
Are Christians loving sin and doing whatever they please in defiance of the Scriptures and against 'the law' as accused by those within HR or similar?
Are we lawless or falsely accused?
RE: Those antinomian christians... - LindaR - 03-24-2009 03:32 PM
(03-23-2009 03:12 PM)Vic Wrote: Many to most in HR and also those claiming to be Messianic view christians--small c--- in derogatory terms and make some accusations. One of those is the accusation that christians are antimomians or lawless. Many will also add that we believe in a lawless Jesus, or similar.MJs and HR falsely accuse Christians of being lawless. I have seen this on another forum (which has a sub section called Messianic Judaism). They have such a disdain for "christians" and "christianity" (using the lower case "c") that anyone coming onto the board will either get curious and read, or get totally turned off and leave. Definitely not a place for new Christians/babes in Christ to be.
Why the accusation?
Don't Christians have 'the law' written on their hearts, as the Scriptures say?
Don't we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to change us and guide us into obedience of God's Word, to keep us from sin; to be holy as He is holy?
Are Christians loving sin and doing whatever they please in defiance of the Scriptures and against 'the law' as accused by those within HR or similar?
Are we lawless or falsely accused?
One can go into these HR and MJ forums and post that salvation is NOT a license to sin and it just falls on deaf ears...but you never know, there might be some "good soil" and some of the "seeds" might just fall on it.
Perhaps the reason why they believe that Christians are lawless (or Torahless) is because we believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled the law/Torah and now we can live anyway we want because we are now under grace? I think they teach that the Torah is the ONLY law...that Messiah/Christ IS Torah INCARNATE and not God INCARNATE. This flat out denies the deity of Christ and elevates Torah/law above Christ.
Matthew 5:17-20 is their "proof text" for keeping Torah.
RE: Those antinomian christians... - sheep wrecked - 03-24-2009 07:02 PM
(03-24-2009 03:32 PM)LindaR Wrote: MJs and HR falsely accuse Christians of being lawless. I have seen this on another forum (which has a sub section called Messianic Judaism). They have such a disdain for "christians" and "christianity" (using the lower case "c") that anyone coming onto the board will either get curious and read, or get totally turned off and leave. Definitely not a place for new Christians/babes in Christ to be.
One can go into these HR and MJ forums and post that salvation is NOT a license to sin and it just falls on deaf ears...but you never know, there might be some "good soil" and some of the "seeds" might just fall on it.
Perhaps the reason why they believe that Christians are lawless (or Torahless) is because we believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled the law/Torah and now we can live anyway we want because we are now under grace? I think they teach that the Torah is the ONLY law...that Messiah/Christ IS Torah INCARNATE and not God INCARNATE. This flat out denies the deity of Christ and elevates Torah/law above Christ.
Matthew 5:17-20 is their "proof text" for keeping Torah.
The funny thing about the Matt 5 text that gets smacked into one's face at every turn, is contextually not about Torah. It's about the Law of Christ. I try not to get involved over that particular passage. Messianics are so blinded, insisting that just because Heaven and earth has not passed away, neither has Torah obedience. But the text never says that. I just shake my head, wondering how I ever gobbled that up as truth at one time
Perhaps Messianics do not really read the NT. It's full of "commandments" - over 1,100 of them. And one is more than aware of what is wrong and what is right in God's eyes by reading the NT. One does not need Torah to understand what sin is any more. sighhhh
RE: Those antinomian christians... - Emjesown - 03-24-2009 07:43 PM
How would you explain these verses?
EMJE
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
RE: Those antinomian christians... - ralliann - 03-28-2009 05:32 PM
(03-23-2009 03:12 PM)Vic Wrote: Many to most in HR and also those claiming to be Messianic view christians--small c--- in derogatory terms and make some accusations. One of those is the accusation that christians are antimomians or lawless. Many will also add that we believe in a lawless Jesus, or similar.
Why the accusation?
Don't Christians have 'the law' written on their hearts, as the Scriptures say?
Don't we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to change us and guide us into obedience of God's Word, to keep us from sin; to be holy as He is holy?
Are Christians loving sin and doing whatever they please in defiance of the Scriptures and against 'the law' as accused by those within HR or similar?
Are we lawless or falsely accused?
It is a false accusation. They cannot see they themselves do not keep the law, how can they see us clearly?
Ralliann
RE: Those antinomian christians... - Rose of Shushan - 03-28-2009 07:09 PM
Emje
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Another thing Emje,
when the prophecies of the prophets come to pass those prophecies have been "fulfilled" acknowledging this doesnt mean we destroy the prophets.In the same way acknowledging that the commands of the first covenant were applicable only to that covenant doesnt mean we destroy the Sinai law.It is just a matter of recognising that the commands applied only within that particular covenant.When a second or new (Jer 31) is cut then the commands of the first no longer are binding.
RE: Those antinomian christians... - Emjesown - 03-28-2009 07:27 PM
Okay Rose
So we don t have to teach our neighburr anymore
because everyone knows God?
I do agree on the fullfilling part and what that means.
But....
the jeremiah 31 and hebr 8 is not in action yet imo.
The convenant that IS in action is the one jesus talked about;:
"this is my blood etc...
Individual everyone can come throught His shed blood.
His shed blood is the sign like shabbath was a sign and the rainbow.
I think as a people/nation they have to wait for jeremiah 31
EMJE
EMJE
RE: Those antinomian christians... - sheep wrecked - 03-28-2009 08:48 PM
(03-28-2009 07:27 PM)Emjesown Wrote: Okay Rose
So we don t have to teach our neighburr anymore
because everyone knows God?
Correct - remember the context is the New Covenant which is in Christ's blood. So those who are "in" Him know God. The text does not say that every person on the face of the earth will know God - just those in the new covenant
Hebrews 8 shows us that Jeremiah 31:31, 32 are fulfilled in us. Let's look at the context of Heb 8:
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he said, Behold, the days come, said the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, said the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.
The New Covenant completely fulfills the old covenant, for ALL of our sins have been forgiven, once and for all in the blood of Christ.
2Co 3:3 For as much as you are manifestly declared to be the letter of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
RE: Those antinomian christians... - Rose of Shushan - 03-28-2009 09:33 PM
Quote:Okay Rose
So we don t have to teach our neighburr anymore
because everyone knows God?
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
It says we won't rely on man via the priest and the prophet to teach.From other verses in OT and from Jesus words we see that in the New Covenant we are taught directly by God.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me has everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Isa 54:13 And all your children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of your children.
John quotes Isaiah who speaks of messianic times also that say that they will all be taught of the Lord.So what is it are they not taught at all or does God teach them ?