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RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Benny - 03-08-2011 11:49 PM
(03-08-2011 06:03 PM)Vic Wrote: Hi Ben, Just some thoughts I have about the food issue. In Genesis 1, before sin entered, God said this:===
[through]
While the rest of mankind had freedom to eat of any living creature on the earth, Israel was now limited to what God commanded in the Law through Moses. Not unlike, in a way, the difference God placed on Israel and the differences of the priests. I believe this is crucial because before they were chosen by God, Israel ate the same as the rest of mankind, just as God had determined to Noah for all mankind.
==
I basically agree with what you are saying above, with the addition that they were forbidden to eat a "limb from an animal" as it says "the blood you shall not eat..." [Gen 9.4]. "Limb from an animal" is an expression, not necessarily just a literal concept. I have no clue why this expression is used, quite honestly.
==
Before Mt Sinai, there was no nation of 'Israel', per say. Yes, there were Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc...but the nation of Israel wasn't set apart until the Torah was given as a 'marriage contract'. There is an interesting bit of reading in a book called 'The Way of G-d' by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto that explains this concept.
Concerning the food we were given to eat... the animals we are allowed in the Torah 'of Moses' to eat, are many of the same animals sacrificed on the Altar in the Temple. There are exceptions, such as the deer, varieties of locust, many species of birds, and any of the fish mentioned. But the main behemot, cattle, sheep, goats, we may eat.
===
When Peter saw the vision of the sheet, that he as a Jew knew the limitations placed by the law, not just with regards to people but food is clear. Just as Rose has stated. But Peter needed to learn that just as Jesus had already said, that it wasn't what a person ate that made them unclean:[/b]
==
honestly, the vision doesn't show food being clean...the interpretation of the vision, by peter, is of people. again, I refer to dreams by Pharaoh as an example.
concerning the passage in Mark, what is the context?
the washing of hands before a meal [specifically, a bread meal]. The command is rabbinic in nature, admittedly, but we do it. It is connected with the Temple service, where the Kohanim wash their hands, perhaps. What I do know is Solomon instituted it.
According to the Talmud, berachot/blessings, there is a connection between Jesus seeming rejection of/belittling of the sages in this area specifically, and the large boulder rolled across his grave.
===
Peter, speaking to fellow Jewish believers, said in Acts 15:7 said,[/b] " Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
Amo 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Isa 51:5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
Concerning the promises...the major promise of all the Torah and the prophets is the return of a repentant and united people of Israel to the Holy Land, with a Temple. Why are Jews scattered across the nations? Because of our sins? maybe. But the sages say something profound...[a connection of several quotes by the sages] Jews are across the nations, to make gerim/converts. What gerim/converts? the lost tribes, who will return as Gerim/converts. Why will they return as converts? Their present status is like that of non-Israel. the prophet Hoshea talks all about this, along with Jeremiah, Ezekiel some, Isaiah, etc. The Torah prophecies this in the story of Joseph, where his identity is hidden from the other brothers, also in Lev, in Dt 4, 30.
When will these prophecies be fulfilled?
Vic, I tried to keep it short, please forgive me if I didn't respond to something you addressed or asked. If you have a thread of on the promises of the OT/Tanakh, please let me know.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Rose of Shushan - 03-09-2011 11:05 AM
Quote:Concerning the promises...the major promise of all the Torah and the prophets is the return of a repentant and united people of Israel to the Holy Land, with a Temple. Why are Jews scattered across the nations? Because of our sins? maybe. But the sages say something profound...[a connection of several quotes by the sages] Jews are across the nations, to make gerim/converts. What gerim/converts? the lost tribes, who will return as Gerim/converts. Why will they return as converts? Their present status is like that of non-Israel. the prophet Hoshea talks all about this, along with Jeremiah, Ezekiel some, Isaiah, etc. The Torah prophecies this in the story of Joseph, where his identity is hidden from the other brothers, also in Lev, in Dt 4, 30.
When will these prophecies be fulfilled?
Ben the return of the people to the land did occur ,the scattering into the nations also.Maybe we could discuss the Scriptures pertaining to these prophecies and how we both think they were or will be fulfilled.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - YYZ Skinhead - 03-09-2011 12:25 PM
It is hard to tell which individual I am quoting from this post, so pardon my error in omitting their name.
Quote:While the rest of mankind had freedom to eat of any living creature on the earth, Israel was now limited to what God commanded in the Law through Moses. Not unlike, in a way, the difference God placed on Israel and the differences of the priests. I believe this is crucial because before they were chosen by God, Israel ate the same as the rest of mankind, just as God had determined to Noah for all mankind.
==
I basically agree with what you are saying above, with the addition that they were forbidden to eat a "limb from an animal" as it says "the blood you shall not eat..." [Gen 9.4]. "Limb from an animal" is an expression, not necessarily just a literal concept. I have no clue why this expression is used, quite honestly.
I think it refers to the prohibition on eating live animals. Some sadistic people nowadays eat live donkey, live fish, live shellfish, et cetera (I will spare everyone the YouTube links). Genesis 9:4 says: But flesh with the life thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Acts 15 and 21 reiterate the prohibition on eating animals with the blood still in them, which presumably includes eating living creatures, and adds "things strangled" because people back then were likely eating their own versions of modern dishes like pressed duck (a perverse dish involving strangling ducks to preserve the blood, which is used in the sauce). If people do it now, they were probably doing it back then. Nothing new under the sun.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Vic - 03-09-2011 01:03 PM
Good point YYZ. I was going to say that as well.
I have started a new thread to deal with the last few posts of Benny and Rose concerning promises and prophecies, lost tribes etc.
It's here> http://www.seekgod.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=785
and called Promises and Prophecies of the OT.
Please take those discussions to that thread. And let's try to keep this thread about Peter's vision and what it means. Thanks so much.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Vic - 03-09-2011 01:29 PM
Hi Ben,
You are doing really well posting and I am enjoying the dialogue. Don't worry about length. Discussions can be short or longer. It's all in the dialogue. I find it easiest to only address one poster in a post and then if I need to answer someone else's post, just start a new post. It saves a little confusion from happening. I also tend to post the Scriptures I am thinking of because many readers may not have their Bibles handy or don't own one. You can also break down someone's posts and post answers to various issues separately. It can make it much easier.
You said,
Quote:I basically agree with what you are saying above, with the addition that they were forbidden to eat a "limb from an animal" as it says "the blood you shall not eat..." [Gen 9.4]. "Limb from an animal" is an expression, not necessarily just a literal concept. I have no clue why this expression is used, quite honestly.
I am struggling to find any concept of the 'limb from an animal' in Scripture. I realise you are going by rabbinic interpretation. But I think in order to understand God's Word ie the Scriptures we must use them. Anything beyond that is someone's interpretation, regardless how we value that interpretation, and in this case, especially knowing rabbinic interpretations were so varied and often in disagreement with each other in many things. I think you might agree with that.
Gen 9:4 ButH389 fleshH1320 with the lifeH5315 thereof, which is the bloodH1818 thereof, shall ye notH3808 eat.H398
From Strong's >blood H1818
דּם
dâm
dawm
From H1826 (compare H119); blood (as that which when shed causes death) of man or an animal; by analogy the juice of the grape; figuratively (especially in the plural) bloodshed (that is, drops of blood): - blood (-y, -guiltiness, [-thirsty]), + innocent.
life H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
The blood is called the life. Therefore we know we aren't supposed to eat something first of all, that is still alive, and the blood is to be drained as best we can after the creature is killed. That is in sharp contrast to some people groups who drink blood as part of rituals etc even today. God had forbidden that blood be eaten, for all mankind. We see this concept carried over to the law for Israel, where it confirms that blood was not to be eaten by Israel as well, for the exact same reason--it's the life.
Lev 7:26 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.
Lev 7:27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
Lev 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.
Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
Deu 12:16 Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.
There's other passages also. In the NT we noted in Acts 15 where it is reiterated to the Gentiles, who may not have known it was wrong to eat the blood and what it means to God, ie it is the life ... And most people do drain the blood from the animals they are to consume. The issue of being forbidden to eat the limb of an animal....I just can't find.
The word for limb- haddâm is found used twice in the OT. And it has nothing to do with not eating a limb from an animal that I can see. I know you said it can be more than literal, but there does not seem to be a Biblical concept for it.
In digging into this I decided to look for legs, since they could be called limbs. And found this, and other verses mention legs:
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Exo 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exo 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
Exo 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
Exo 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.
but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
his headH7218 withH5921 his legs,H3767 and withH5921 the purtenanceH7130 thereof
head H7218
ראשׁ
rô'sh
BDB Definition:
1) head, top, summit, upper part, chief, total, sum, height, front, beginning
1a) head (of man, animals).....
legs H3767
כּרע
kârâ‛
BDB Definition:
1) leg
purtenance H7130
קרב
qereb
BDB Definition:
1) midst, among, inner part, middle
1a) inward part
1a1) physical sense
1a2) as seat of thought and emotion
1a3) as faculty of thought and emotion
1b) in the midst, among, from among (of a number of persons)
1c) entrails (of sacrificial animals)
Clearly the limb of an animal could be eaten, and was required to be eaten in this case. It's confusing to me to add to God's Word, which to me was so clearly stated by God, at first to Noah for all mankind and reiterated as part of the law to Israel, concerning not eating blood.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Vic - 03-09-2011 01:40 PM
Hi Ben,
I broke my answer down into two posts to make it easier to discuss if you are of a mind.
Re: If Peter's vision did not mean food and people, and just meant people. Aside from that changing that a Jew could be in company with a Gentile, when Peter sat at meals with Gentiles, both believers of Christ and non....how do you interpret what he ate?
He had said to God, that he had never allowed any unclean food to pass his lips. And God said, no creature made clean by him was unclean...We see that Peter not only kept company with the Gentiles, but ate with them. How could this be, if it was just an issue of accepting other people being clean before God?
Israel had very specific commands by God concerning what and how to eat, and we know that by Acts 15, it was again clarified that the Gentiles did not need to abide the Law given to Israel, and that Jews and Gentiles were the same before God when they believed Him.
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
...Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
....Act 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Act 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
....Act 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
Act 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
....Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Paul called Peter out for being hypocritical in his dealings with the Gentiles and fellow Jews.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
This issue culminated in the council in Acts 15, although it's possible the Galatians 2 incident happened after this, but I am not sure of the time frames... It makes sense the council happened after simply because of mention of the believers coming from James, who eventually after the discussion declared those basic things...
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
...Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
...Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
...Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
I think it would be impossible to keep company with the Gentiles, and eat with them and live as they lived as Peter was doing, if dictates of the clean and unclean food became the major issue and still in force. Especially for those Gentiles who didn't have a clue about such things, and would have been eating the way they always had, even when Peter or Paul for example sat and ate with them. Jesus went and stayed in the village of the Samaritans for several days. He ate with them.
Paul wrote:
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
...Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
To me that is really what it came down to. That Peter and then the other believers needed to understand that God not only was allowing the Gentiles to be cleansed along with the Jews in order to have a relationship with God, but that food also, which could so dramatically keep them apart, was also declared clean because God said so. Those are my understandings and thoughts in how I see it.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Rose of Shushan - 03-09-2011 11:27 PM
Thank you for the clarification about the it being the laws of Noah.Maybe instead of rabbinic I should have said Talmudic since the supposed laws of Noah originate there.
According to myjewishlearning.com the Noahide laws are part of jewish tradition.
"The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments: [to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8)."
The supposed noahide laws are different rabbis interpretations of different verses in the Bible.They are all based on Talmud and rabbinic discussion.
Quote:Concerning the passage in Deut. 23:
Notice the change of pace in the verse, unto your brother you may not lend interest. Unto a nocri you may lend interest; but unto your brother you shall not lend upon interest.
Is it difficult to see in this passage, that the nocri, whom we shall lend on interest to, and the brother, whom we shall not lend on interest to, are different? Also, the verb in 'future' form Tav- verb, which is used both for future, "You will do this" or commanding someone, "You will do this" or lo ta-... "You will not do this". Therefore, may is not correct translation. Often when there is an option, the word 'ki'- kaf yud, is placed before it. But the plain reading should suffice for the normal reader, that there is difference in the two.
It is not difficult to see they are different,no.But who is saying that they are? I for one am in agreement that there were different laws for the israelites than for non israelites.
I don't understand what you mean by the word may not being correct in that verse.What would you suggest be a better rendering?
I suppose one could eliminate the may since the hebrew has just lend or dont lend.Is that what you mean? But then I suppose it would read- to a foreigner lend with usury and to your brother don't lend with usury.Do you think this is what it should read in the english instead?
I don't see why there would need to be a ki in there or an option.
Quote:concerning Dt 14.21, you yourself admit to the difference in Israelite vs non-Israelite. So then how are laws of the sons of Noah Rabbinic? Does not G-d want non-Israelite people to serve him also?Ben the supposed laws of Noah are not laws of Noah at all but laws made up by the rabbis and very very loosely based on what was said to Noah.Pretty much in the same way that the Oral Torah is based on The Bible but on selected verses and the rabbinic interpretations of said verses.
Of course I believe God wants all people to serve Him.But I believe this is done via the New Torah that the Servant Isaiah mentions brought.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Daniel also spoke of Him
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Benny - 03-10-2011 01:01 AM
Vic, I am looking into what you replied. It is a little involved, and I want to be honestly objective about it. I need to study the NT passages.
Rose of Sushan,
concerning the laws of the sons of Noah [termed in hebrew 'sheva mitsvot bney noach']...it is a Rabbinic tradition what the specific commandments are, correct. From the text, we can plainly see that...
...Noah was only specifically given of the commandments.
"But flesh with its soul its blood you shall not eat" Gen 9.4
The other 6 are said to come with Adam to Noah.
sexual immorality is fairly strongly inferred...
"Therefore, shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" Gen 2.24
Likewise, murder is fairly strongly inferred in Cain being punished for killing Abel. Otherwise, why punish him?
cursing the name of G-d and theft are based on the Hebrew wording of their respective phrases...
"Then began men to call on the name of Hashem" [Gen 4.26] This phrase's translation really depends on the ambiguous word/phrase "huchal likro".
likewise with not stealing...Gen. 6.11 states:
"Now the earth had become corrupt before G-d; and the earth had become filled with 'Chamas'." What is the translation of Chamas? One of the several translation of Chamas, is that which is spoken in the book of Jonah 3.8:
"Both man and animal shall cover themselves with sackcloth;and they shall call out mightily to G-d. Every man shall turn back from his evil way, and from the chamas that is in their hands."
setting up courts and idolatry seem to be the most 'rabbinic' in terms of the text. Perhaps that is why the 4 things mentioned in the book of Acts are things strangled, blood [murder], fornication [sexual immorality], and pollutions of idols. They are fairly apparent in the text [the pollutions of idols is questionable, in terms of the text, unless it were the cursing G-d prohibition].
They are called in the name of the sons of Noah, probably because after the flood, all the nations descended from him and his sons...only once Abraham distinguished himself, then Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 sons did the concept Israel start to really form.
As for the prophecies fulfilled or not aspect, that is another thread.
If Vic could, perhaps a thread for "What was the original covenant" could be started, but as an entry point into the prophecies aspect. I suggest this, since it is my opinion that it is a point of misunderstanding by many non-jews.
Be well.
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - Vic - 03-10-2011 11:20 AM
Hi Benny,
With regards to the 6 noahide laws being rabbinic and connected to what was said in Acts 15 for Gentiles...
I agree the issue of murder was addressed of course by God, with Cain and Abel.
However, God commanded to not kill another human, directly to Noah, and also reiterated about being fruitful and multiplying on the earth...like He had said to Adam and Eve, and just as He had told them that man would have dominion over all living creatures..
Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Gen 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
I agree that the sexual immorality/fornication might be from contrast to Genesis 2:24. And we also see Jesus said, 'to look upon a woman to lust was adultery", and fornication included any sin outside of marriage. For the Gentiles, sexual sin was a common occurrance in the societies they were in and even today.
pollutions of idols > was a prohibition of following false gods and having images of those false gods, which of course the Gentiles in many cases would have had. Thinking the Romans and Greeks for example etc specifically had idols they worshipped. And also to keep themselves from being involved in the rituals of things offered to idols, such as food.
I believe that's why Paul also addressed it with regards to what not to do when going to be with those who still offered food to idols and their various rituals, because they did not understand who God is:
1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
To keep themselves from things strangled meant the blood would not be allowed to drain, which would then violate the issue of not eating the blood.
The rest of the rabbinic list of the Noahide laws... those few things you mentioned are really just a very limited concept and not part of what God said to Noah. Not stealing, etc, are actually part of the change the Holy Spirit indwelling causes a new believer in Jesus Christ. The reality for believers is that It's the law of God written on our heart, as part of the promised New Covenant. So things like coveting, theft, lying, cheating, rage, hate...all these things are known inwardly to be sin. And as believers, as the Holy Spirit works in our lives, we want to do things that honor God. So those few things suggested in the rabbinic writings, really do not cover what we as believers view as required to obey Christ, and to 'be holy as He is Holy'. And by that, it also means believers who are Jews and Gentiles, because we have the same call of obedience to the Law of Christ through the New Covenant.
Part of the reason for those things mentioned in Acts 15, I think, aside from the whole issue being about some of the Jewish believers thinking the Gentiles needed to keep the Law of Moses and be circumcised 15:1,5, was also to show that there was no difference in how God forgave and saved all believers. As Peter said, it was by faith, and the inward working of the Holy Spirit would change the hearts of all. Because it wasn't keeping the law of Moses that saved a person, but walking by faith as Abraham did, to whom the promise was made. Gen 17 To me it's an amazing thing that Abraham was so faithful, surrounded by all manner of paganism and rejection of God, but he was so faithful as to be called the friend of God. And God kept that promise to him. Just as you shared about seeking God with the whole heart, it is about our hearts acknowledging our sin and desiring to know God. I love these passages.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psa 34:22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.
Psa 51:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.> Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psa 51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. ...Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
...Psa 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Psa 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
** I am going to set up a promises section and then do a thread about the covenant so that we can start as many threads as wanted to discuss the promises and prophecies and keep it all together in one section in the forum. ****
RE: Did Peter's Vision of the Sheet Mean People & Food? - sari83 - 04-04-2011 10:12 AM
I think that Peter's vision is referring to a spiritual cleansing, in regards to the gentiles. I do not believe the genetic structure of unclean animals changed to make them clean. Scientific research has shown that the animals that the scriptures deem to be unclean in fact contain parasites & disease, partially due to genetic predisposition.
If all animals have been cleansed for food purposes, what do these verses mean?
Isa 65:4
Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
(KJV)
Isa 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
(KJV)